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Thread: Could most modern English translations be in error?

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    Could most modern English translations be in error?

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

    What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Could most modern English translations be in error?
    Yes, most modern English translations are in error.
    Many English words are still undergoing redefinition, which makes any use of those words in a translation suspect.
    There are other English words that have acquired incorrect meanings, which makes any use of those words a guarantee to produce error.

    However, the translation errors do not prevent a lot of people from finding the truth needed for Salvation in the English versions of the Bible.
    They mostly show up in doctrinal arguments that do not affect salvation.
    People can be saved by following the teachings of Roman Catholic, Calvinist, and Arminian denominations, even though they have doctrinal differences about what is needed to be saved.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Why do I think Gregory prefers the Cotton patch Bible...

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    After reading the OP, please explain in your own words how it would argue that the first of these English language "opinions" (often called "translations" rather than "opinions" of men) of the ancient Koine Greek "Scriptures" is unfaithful & misleading and the second is not in its rendering of the Greek word aionion:

    Matthew 25:46

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    King James Version (KJV)

    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
    Concordant Literal New Testament (CLV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    After reading the OP, please explain in your own words how it would argue that the first of these English language "opinions" (often called "translations" rather than "opinions" of men) of the ancient Koine Greek "Scriptures" is unfaithful & misleading and the second is not in its rendering of the Greek word aionion:

    Matthew 25:46

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    King James Version (KJV)

    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
    Concordant Literal New Testament (CLV)
    Jesus was quoting Daniel 12:2.
    The word used in Daniel 12:2 for everlasting is עוֹלָם, which means world.


    עוֹלָם - 'olám
    1. (The) world: (the) Earth, (the) globe.
    2. (The) world: the states and nations of the world.
    3. A world: an area, a field of study.
    4. Ever, eternity.
    5. A world: the entirety of a person's life and experience.


    The context for the Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46 is what happens in the world to come (olam ha-ba).


    ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 BC–AD 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

    Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”


    Jesus specifically said everlasting life would be in olam ha-ba, the world to come, for the people that leave all for the kingdom of God.

    Luke 18:29-30
    29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
    30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.



    The Bible teaches that there are two possible futures for people in olam ha-ba:
    1. Some people will be living the good life in olam ha-ba.
    2. The rest will not be alive in olam ha-ba.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
    The Crusades were significantly before the English translations. Since you mentioned the KJV tradition, you may be interested to know that also coincides with when England was actively stopping the past practice of religious persecution:

    "I will never allow in my conscience that the blood of any man shall be shed for diversity of opinions in religion."

    -KJ, 1612

    Given the opening statement, isn't this really about suggesting that we should find a Bible translation somewhere that has removed all (of the multitude) of references (direct and indirect) to eternal punishment? The Universalist thread might be a better place for this question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post

    The word used in Daniel 12:2 for everlasting is עוֹלָם, which means world.
    "olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity"

    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"?

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    http://biblehub.com/greek/152.htm


    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    "olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity"

    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm
    You seem to have missed something very basic.


    ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 BC–AD 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

    Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”


    In context of the teachings of Judaism at the time, the use of the word "olam" in Daniel 12:2 and in Matthew 25:46 is referring to the entire time after death, not a part of it.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Are modern translations of the Bible in error? Essentially the answer is NO!! We can have a very high degree of confidence in our translations.

    We can take any of the top 20 or so translations, and be confident that it is an accurate translation from the many ancient manuscripts that exist. You can examine the credentials of the translation teams. Sometimes it is good to compare one translation to another if a certain passage is in question. And of course footnotes in study Bibles also help, if there is a question about the accuracy of the translation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to have missed something very basic.


    ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 BC–AD 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

    Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”


    In context of the teachings of Judaism at the time, the use of the word "olam" in Daniel 12:2 and in Matthew 25:46 is referring to the entire time after death, not a part of it.
    No, the word at Mt.25:46, aionion, does not mean "world". The Greek word for "world" is KOSMOS, not AIONION.

    Regarding the noun, AION (related to the adjective AIONION in Mt.25:46), the apostle Paul says there are multiple ages(AION) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7), not just one. So Mt.25:46 may refer to one of the future AIONs, and a finite AION. The point of Mt.25:46 may just be a contrast of finite destinies in the AION to come. If so, then "eternal" as a translation of AIONION in Mt.25:46 is wrong.

    In any case, to translate AIONION as "eternal" there is misleading & based upon translator bias. It's quite shameful, actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    Given the opening statement, isn't this really about suggesting that we should find a Bible translation somewhere that has removed all (of the multitude) of references (direct and indirect) to eternal punishment? The Universalist thread might be a better place for this question?
    That's a strange comment coming from one who is filling up another thread with - off topic - posts. Do you have a double standard.

    And, no, the topic here is whether *translations* are in error, or biased & misleading, as per the OP, & has nothing to do with theological opinions or interpretations.

    Can you answer this question:


    After reading the OP, please explain in your own words how it would argue that the first of these English language "opinions" (often called "translations" rather than "opinions" of men) of the ancient Koine Greek "Scriptures" is unfaithful & misleading and the second is not in its rendering of the Greek word aionion:

    Matthew 25:46

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    King James Version (KJV)

    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
    Concordant Literal New Testament (CLV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Are modern translations of the Bible in error? Essentially the answer is NO!! We can have a very high degree of confidence in our translations.

    We can take any of the top 20 or so translations, and be confident that it is an accurate translation from the many ancient manuscripts that exist. You can examine the credentials of the translation teams. Sometimes it is good to compare one translation to another if a certain passage is in question. And of course footnotes in study Bibles also help, if there is a question about the accuracy of the translation.
    I studied under a Bible teacher who owned the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican . He used this collection , being fluent in all the ancient dialects , to show which one or which language was closest to the original Greek . One translation was never always correct .

    But probably the greatest thing he may have discovered was that possibly the most important word in the Greek , could not be translated into the English language . This word is pisteuo , the verb form of our noun Faith . The Greek has the noun pistis , and the corresponding verb pisteuo . The English language only has a noun , Faith , no corresponding verb .

    As a result , the translators had to choose words that would forever change Faith and faithing as it was meant to be communicated . The words they chose are believe , believer , and believing .

    The Strongs gives a specific disclaimer when it defines pisteuo as meaning " NOT" just to believe .
    The Vines , " a personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender .'

    With this mistranslation , not much else will matter .

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    The English translations like the ESV, NASB, NKJV, NLT and NIV are all very good translations. The process of multiple peer review guides these translations to ensure their accuracy. Unlike the KJV, these newer translations have more and earlier manuscripts by which they made their translations.
    People who question these translations are usually cult members with an agenda and heresy they refuse to give up. For such people, their delusion is driving them toward hell. If God does not graciously step in and remove their delusion they will spend eternity in hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The English translations like the ESV, NASB, NKJV, NLT and NIV are all very good translations. The process of multiple peer review guides these translations to ensure their accuracy. Unlike the KJV, these newer translations have more and earlier manuscripts by which they made their translations.
    People who question these translations are usually cult members with an agenda and heresy they refuse to give up. For such people, their delusion is driving them toward hell. If God does not graciously step in and remove their delusion they will spend eternity in hell.
    What qualifications do you have to make any comments on any translations validity ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The English translations like the ESV, NASB, NKJV, NLT and NIV are all very good translations. The process of multiple peer review guides these translations to ensure their accuracy. Unlike the KJV, these newer translations have more and earlier manuscripts by which they made their translations.
    People who question these translations are usually cult members with an agenda and heresy they refuse to give up. For such people, their delusion is driving them toward hell. If God does not graciously step in and remove their delusion they will spend eternity in hell.

    What qualifications do you have allowing you to make eternal judgements on anyone ?

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