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Thread: Is "soul sleep" a Scriptural doctrine?

  1. #76
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    No?

    Outer court -> our perception of reality
    Inner court -> our thoughts
    Innermost court -> the place in our minds where we converse with God
    You missed the food court and the basketball court.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    I am fairly certain that Thessalonians does not tell us that man has a metaphysical makeup like the old Jewish temple, and if the "real us" was alive and conscious if our body was slain, it wouldn't say that "we" die or "we" perish, it would say that our "body" only perished but we live on. That's entirely lacking.

    Just calling this out now, the entire "Soul Fly Away" doctrine depends on ignoring an overwhelming evidence of scripture and reasoning that God's prophets were dumb, stupid, or lying, and that God himself didn't know what he was talking about in the Garden. It meshes very well with Plato, but not with the scripture.
    Now isn't that odd?

    It just goes to show that people read into the Bible those things that support their own premise....like soul sleep which most of Christendom denies.

    I see overwhelming evidence that supports exactly what I say....to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You argue that somewhere unseen in that text is thousands of years of sleeping and unconsciousness. There is NO EVIDENCE to support that conclusion. I submit you do that quite often. Rejecting plain verses and adding your own reasoning.

    Now, you seem to be saying I'm calling God's prophets dumb and lying. Not true. What I believe does not "mesh" with Plato. I could just as easily say your ideas about soul sleep mesh with the 7 day Adventists and other cults.

    Let's not go there.

    Pick your best verse and then we can explore the entire context..... evidence.

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    "I do - not - agree that the "soul sleep" viewpoint is Scriptural."


    State of the Dead - Scriptures


    Spoiler
    Psalm 90:3-6

    You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

    Job 7:21

    "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

    Job 14:10-12

    "But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    Psalm 13:3

    Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

    Daniel 12:2

    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 9:24

    He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

    Mark 5:39

    And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

    Luke 8:52-53

    Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

    1 Kings 2:10

    Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

    Deuteronomy 31:16

    The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

    2 Samuel 7:12

    "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

    1 Kings 11:43

    And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 14:20

    The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 16:6

    And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

    1 Kings 22:50

    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 14:16

    So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 15:7

    And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 16:20

    So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

    2 Kings 20:21

    So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 21:18

    And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

    Revelation 14:13

    And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


    John 11:11-14

    This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

    Acts 7:60

    Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:6

    After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

    John 5:28-29

    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Job 14:13-15

    "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

    Psalm 17:15

    As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

    Isaiah 26:19

    Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.


    Luke 16:22-23

    "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

    1 Corinthians 15:20

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Jeremiah 51:57

    "I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


    Psalm 7:3-5

    O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

    Psalm 76:5

    The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

    Jeremiah 51:39

    "When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.
    Here you go....a plethora of verses, not a one of which supports soul sleep. Context is everything. Without context, these misunderstanding will inevitably occur.

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  6. #79
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    The concept is very scriptural, it's derived from scripture using the language of scripture. If someone disagrees with the concept they cannot fault it for being sourced from scripture, but they accuse us of believing the scripture too literally, or misapplying the scripture, of not accepting other assumptions in our interpretation.
    Misunderstanding of Scripture. Sleep, for instance, is used many different ways in the Bible. When you try to use your own idea of sleep, or cherry pick verses that suit your own idea, then you have no choice but to fail. This is, unfortunately, a very common error.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Scripture never describes God as not having a body, but it does say that Christ has a spiritual body.

    Considering that he ascended to his Father to return to the glory he had with him before the world began, I think we have more indication that "spiritual body" is a proper way to reference God. After all, God is a spirit.
    Of course God is a spirit...invisible. Yet, the Word, who was WITH GOD and was God became flesh and dwelt among us as a human being in a flesh and blood body. It was only after He rose from the dead that He had a spiritual body. That spiritual body is exactly like the spiritual bodies we will have. Not like some spirit body that God the Father has or the Holy Spirit has.

    So, no, a "spiritual body" is NOT the proper way to reference God.



    Man is not a car, man is dust. We came from the dust and we return to the dust. Man does need a body in order to function.
    Man is not dust. The fact that God used dust to form man doesn't mean man is dust.

    In fact, Paul tells us man is body, soul, and spirit. Why do you discount this verse?

    YOUR whole spirit, soul, and body. We are NOT just a body formed from the dust of the ground.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    No, man does not have an outer court, an inner court, and the innermost court like the Jewish Temple.
    The three parts of man can be likened to the Jewish Temple.

    The body is the outer court.
    The soul is the inner court. Who we are as a person.
    The spirit is the innermost court whereby we commune with God....spirit to Spirit.


    Man has a body (the physical part of a man),
    Yes, our tent, a temporary covering.

    man has a spirit (the life-force),
    Well, we know the spirit of man knows the things of man, so it's more than a life force wouldn't you think?

    1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    We also know the Spirit teaches us spiritual things....Spirit to spirit. We worship God in spirit. That innermost temple where the priest met God.

    1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.



    and man has a soul (the being/identity).
    Yes, that part of man that makes us an individual. Our mind, will and emotions.

    Modern medicine has proven that you can swap out the parts of the body.
    The Bible says that God can swap out the spirit.
    LOL I'm not sure about "swapping out", but He certainly renews a right spirit in us. Psalm 51:10



    The only thing that can't be swapped out is the soul.
    2 Corinthians 5:17
    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Romans 12:2 And we were carnal....not anymore, though.

    We are being conformed ....body, soul, and spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Sleep, for instance, is used many different ways in the Bible.
    "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." (John 11:11)

    "Then Jesus said to them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'" (John 11:14)

    What did Jesus mean by sleep?

    Can a person with eternal life die?

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." (John 11:11)

    "Then Jesus said to them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'" (John 11:14)

    What did Jesus mean by sleep?

    Can a person with eternal life die?
    Jesus was clearly saying that Lazarus was dead.

    "Then Jesus said to them plainly..."

    Meaning he wasn't speaking plainly prior. He was using sleep as a euphemism for death.
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; September 15th, 2018 at 11:56 AM.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Now isn't that odd?

    It just goes to show that people read into the Bible those things that support their own premise....like soul sleep which most of Christendom denies.

    I see overwhelming evidence that supports exactly what I say....to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You argue that somewhere unseen in that text is thousands of years of sleeping and unconsciousness. There is NO EVIDENCE to support that conclusion. I submit you do that quite often. Rejecting plain verses and adding your own reasoning.
    That's a wonderful example, thank you. Can you please show us ANY bible version anywhere that says to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord? You've taken your own interpretation and now when you hear the passage your mind substitutes different words.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
    (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    The word "and" is a word indicating a sequence, not an equivalence. Glory, you're guilty of the exact thing that you just tried to point at me.

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    Over 4000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Man is not dust. The fact that God used dust to form man doesn't mean man is dust.
    Genesis 3:19 KJV
    (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Glory says man is not dust, God said man is dust. God must not have known what he was talking about?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Genesis 3:19 KJV
    (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Glory says man is not dust, God said man is dust. God must not have known what he was talking about?
    Open Theology?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." (John 11:11)

    "Then Jesus said to them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'" (John 11:14)

    What did Jesus mean by sleep?

    Can a person with eternal life die?
    Death of the body is also known as "sleep".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    That's a wonderful example, thank you. Can you please show us ANY bible version anywhere that says to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord? You've taken your own interpretation and now when you hear the passage your mind substitutes different words.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
    (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    The word "and" is a word indicating a sequence, not an equivalence. Glory, you're guilty of the exact thing that you just tried to point at me.
    Ah very clever. However....I fail to see your point. Of course we have to leave our body before we go to be with the Lord.

    Paul knows and is confident that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. Therefore, the following verse is showing the exact opposite (rather). There is no room for an interim condition there.

    2 Cor. 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Genesis 3:19 KJV
    (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Glory says man is not dust, God said man is dust. God must not have known what he was talking about?
    Odd you should ignore this point just so you could ridicule me about "dust". God formed all the animals from dust, too. But they didn't remain dust any more than we did. We were taken from the dust and shall return to the dust. As the verse plainly says.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Of course God is a spirit...invisible. Yet, the Word, who was WITH GOD and was God became flesh and dwelt among us as a human being in a flesh and blood body. It was only after He rose from the dead that He had a spiritual body. That spiritual body is exactly like the spiritual bodies we will have. Not like some spirit body that God the Father has or the Holy Spirit has.

    So, no, a "spiritual body" is NOT the proper way to reference God.
    This is actually what I said. I'm surprised you cherry pick my quote so you can mock me. By doing so, though, you miss my point (once again).

    Man is not dust. The fact that God used dust to form man doesn't mean man is dust.

    In fact, Paul tells us man is body, soul, and spirit. Why do you discount this verse?


    YOUR whole spirit, soul, and body. We are NOT just a body formed from the dust of the ground.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Open Theology?
    Nothing to do with open theology. It's a matter of not paying attention to what was actually said.

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