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Thread: Is "soul sleep" a Scriptural doctrine?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    yes, immediately present with the Lord
    "who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past and they overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:18)

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

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    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Are we immediately present with the Lord?
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
    (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It depends on who you ask. If you ask the person that was just raised from the dead, it may seem immediate to them, but if anyone was awake and watching they would be aware of that time in between that death and resurrection.

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    Over 1500 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings GregoryN and way 2 go,
    I do not agree with the term soul sleep, as I believe that we are a living soul Genesis 2:7 and when we die we return to the dust Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.
    When Paul faced death, he speaks of his departure in terms that speak of the return of Jesus Christ to establish the Kingdom, the resurrection and judgement, and being rewarded at that time, not going to heaven.
    2 Timothy 4:1,7–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    yes , someday there will be a judgement day but in the meantime Paul is with Jesus.

    yes, immediately present with the Lord

    2Co 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


    Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
    Php 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    "who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past and they overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:18)

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
    Paul is with Jesus , Paul's body is in the ground awaiting the resurrection.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Paul is with Jesus , Paul's body is in the ground awaiting the resurrection.
    Is there a spiritual body?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Is there a spiritual body?
    The physical body that's in the grave will be transformed into a body that a person will have for the rest of eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The physical body that's in the grave will be transformed into a body that a person will have for the rest of eternity.
    When is a person changed to have a spiritual body?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The physical body that's in the grave will be transformed into a body that a person will have for the rest of eternity.
    Nope, we will receive a spiritual body at the first resurrection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
    (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It depends on who you ask. If you ask the person that was just raised from the dead, it may seem immediate to them, but if anyone was awake and watching they would be aware of that time in between that death and resurrection.
    I am always amazed whenever people quote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 without including 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We are discussing whether "soul sleep" is scriptural.
    Paul speaks of Christians that have already died by the time Paul is writing this letter.
    Paul says that they are asleep.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am always amazed whenever people quote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 without including 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We are discussing whether "soul sleep" is scriptural.
    Paul speaks of Christians that have already died by the time Paul is writing this letter.
    Paul says that they are asleep.
    Brevity... I'd like to force people to read 1 Corinthians 15 also (whole chapter) and a hundred other scriptures but I know it isn't going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Brevity... I'd like to force people to read 1 Corinthians 15 also (whole chapter) and a hundred other scriptures but I know it isn't going to happen.
    Short and sweet does not always work well with Paul's long and rambling sentences.

    The famous "Rapture" passage begins with Paul talking about what will happen to dead Christians.
    Paul explains that dead Christians will rise from the dead when Jesus comes back from heaven, then the Christians that did not die will join them.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am always amazed whenever people quote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 without including 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We are discussing whether "soul sleep" is scriptural.
    Paul speaks of Christians that have already died by the time Paul is writing this letter.
    Paul says that they are asleep.
    GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

    It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

    It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.
    So, all we would need now to support the theory that the dead are really alive (in spirit) is to show where the bible plainly says that the spirit without the body is alive, has thought, feeling, emotion, and awareness. But the bible doesn't speak in that fashion. We need air to live, but it doesn't mean the air is alive. The life belongs to God, and God is the only one that can restore life. He wouldn't need to restore life if we were already alive.

    Joh 5:26-29 KJV
    (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    A claim that the dead really live preempts the doctrine of the resurrection and makes it unnecessary. Christ himself proved that the dead can not be considered alive in any sense other than the promise of the future resurrection, as the only sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Tell that to Robert Pate:

    Robert's psychopannychia:

    Sigh.

    AMR
    For those of you who haven't read Calvin's Pyschopannachia it's funny in a very sad way.

    He starts of by railing against that nefarious herd of Anabaptists (who apparently are his opponents) and then admits that he has never actually listened to or talked to them or read any of their writings. He bases his logic on a passage that says "no peace for the wicked" and neglects to notice that his passage does not say "the dead wicked" but when the Bible does speak of the dead wicked in Job it says that they are at peace and ceased from troubling.

    https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...pannychia.html

    That Calvin's particular writing had any impact at all is more of a testament that Calvin had personal influence, rather than any soundness of doctrine. I'd originally read it to see why it was given any credit with the thought of a written rebuttal, then deemed that there is no glory winning the proverbial battle of wits with an unarmed opponent (there, that's nicer than what I was going to say.)
    Last edited by Rosenritter; September 11th, 2018 at 05:20 PM. Reason: Linked to Calvin

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

    It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.
    The spirit is the life-force used to animate the body to create the soul.

    The body has no self-awareness.
    The spirit has no self-awareness.

    Only the soul has self-awareness.

    Without the spirit, the body is dead, and there is no soul to have self-awareness.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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