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Thread: Omniscience means fatalism.

  1. #76
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    MS, have you ever read the entire Bible cover to cover, word for word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    It sounds like your CHANGE OVER has made you: pleasant, loving, kind, humble, mannerly, incapable of anger and sarcasm, unable to reply with name calling, sentimental, forgiving, gentle, happy, joyful, etc, etc. Nobody would ever think you might not be a True believer.
    Do you for a moment think that our sinful self is now perfect because God has redeemed us? Do you think God's sanctification will ever stop while we live here on earth?
    No, I am still the wretch I have always been (Read Romans 7), but thanks be to Jesus, I am no longer condemned (Read Romans 8).

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    LOL, it sounds like God's word and much to your dismay, Calvin read and observed God's word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Sounds a wee bit like John Calvin, himself. Oh, say it ain't so.

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    If an entity is omniscient, that means it knows everything — down to the movement of every subatomic particle throughout all history.

    That entity must precede every physical thing.

    The entity must be the source of everything.

    The entity cannot have arrived at omniscience.

    The entity had no option but to create exactly as it knew would happen.

    An man living in this universe would be fated at every moment of his life.
    Perhaps it goes that way. I'm not sure we can say so definitively. My example was/is an Almanac. If I get one from the future, the only thing that 'fates' your choices is your choices. The Almanac knowing them ahead of time? We cannot be 'fated' to a publication because of what is printed atf. Would you, for instance, feel locked in at that point? I wouldn't and don't with God, but what's my limited perception worth? Yours?

    Let me entertain it as a given for a moment: That I'm automatically fated. I'd suggest the illusion or perception isn't really the important point. However God made me is fine with me. If I'm an automaton, I'm His automaton. If with a 'free' will, I still desire to be His free will, etc.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    MS, have you ever read the entire Bible cover to cover, word for word?
    Yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Perhaps it goes that way. I'm not sure we can say so definitively. My example was/is an Almanac. If I get one from the future, the only thing that 'fates' your choices is your choices. The Almanac knowing them ahead of time? We cannot be 'fated' to a publication because of what is printed atf. Would you, for instance, feel locked in at that point? I wouldn't and don't with God, but what's my limited perception worth? Yours?

    Let me entertain it as a given for a moment: That I'm automatically fated. I'd suggest the illusion or perception isn't really the important point. However God made me is fine with me. If I'm an automaton, I'm His automaton. If with a 'free' will, I still desire to be His free will, etc.
    If the Almanac created the storm and the recipients of the storm, then predicted what would happen, everyone, including you, would hold the Almanac responsible.
    However, you are right; if God created me to be damned, I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if God calls that good, can you tell me what bad is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    If the Almanac created the storm and the recipients of the storm, then predicted what would happen, everyone, including you, would hold the Almanac responsible.
    No you wouldn't. How could you blame a page of ink??? Even if it were the person who wrote it, did he/she have ANYTHING to do with it? More, what if it was a result of global warming 'we' caused? I appreciate you walking through this, the entertainment of ideas, and more, the way the scriptures portray these matters is meaningful to me, and I pray for you as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    However, you are right; if God created me to be damned, I'm fine with that.
    It'd be what we want too, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    On the other hand, if God calls that good, can you tell me what bad is?
    Yes. If I create cars, and some of them kill people, you wouldn't suggest I created them 'to' kill people would you? I'm the last person that wants to be God's judge. He has told me already ("because I told you so!") He is righteous. It doesn't matter what something 'looks like' to me. I'm no judge and moreover, have no desire. He will judge me and no matter what it 'looks' like, it'll be good because He is good. Job himself, very righteous, proved unfit for the task, and I'd argue he had a much better grasp, perhaps more than you and I. Job 13:15 I'm probably off on a tangent, but it seemed important. I just don't think we always know what 'good' and 'righteous' look like because I KNOW it is only what God has transformed in me to His image, that would be able to get that right, and I'm still being conformed. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    And a thousand years is like a day.
    To a child, a year is like a lifetime.
    To an old man, a year passes in a flash.
    To an immortal God, a thousand years is like a day is to a man: a short period of time.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The gospel of grace is shown in Paul's conversion.
    A terrorist on his way to round up and kill Christians is made alive in Christ by no effort of his own on the road to Damascus.
    God giving to Paul what he did not deserve.
    It's amazing grace that saves a wretch like me.
    What kind of grace was given to Judas: the son of perdition?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    To a child, a year is like a lifetime.
    To an old man, a year passes in a flash.
    To an immortal God, a thousand years is like a day is to a man: a short period of time.
    You really don't get to determine the latter.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Did Paul have to do that before God saved him on the road to Damascus? If so, then Paul was saved by his own works.
    Paul fit under these criteria:

    Malachi 3:16-18
    16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
    17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
    18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


    If Paul did not fit under those criteria, God would not have stopped him on the road to Damascus.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    You really don't get to determine the latter.
    It depends on which definition of "determine" you are relying on.
    ___________
    determine
    1. cause (something) to occur in a particular way; be the decisive factor in.
    2. ascertain or establish exactly, typically as a result of research or calculation.
    ___________
    I can't cause an immortal God to see the passing of a thousand years as a small amount of time.
    I can ascertain that an immortal God would necessarily see the passing of a thousand years as a small amount of time.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    From another thread, Derf confirms that Omniscience means fatalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    If God can see into a future He can alter, then He's not looking at a settled future. If the future He sees is settled, He's a slave to it, and the only way it works out right is if God planned everything from the beginning (Calvinism). But then you have God planning people's sin for them.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    If the Almanac created the storm and the recipients of the storm, then predicted what would happen, everyone, including you, would hold the Almanac responsible.
    However, you are right; if God created me to be damned, I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if God calls that good, can you tell me what bad is?
    That's a new one. You'd be fine with being created to be damned? I sense you're making a point but you might want to expand on it a bit.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    If an entity is omniscient, that means it knows everything — down to the movement of every subatomic particle throughout all history.

    That entity must precede every physical thing.
    Why?

    The entity must be the source of everything.
    Why?
    The entity cannot have arrived at omniscience.
    Why? If Omniscience is "knowing everything", then why can't God make someone who "knows everything"?

    The entity had no option but to create exactly as it knew would happen.
    This statement, I think, defines your use of "omniscience" and answers the "why" questions. "omniscient" is defined fairly simply--"knowing everything". "Everything" is defined as "all things". "Thing" is defined as:
    1 : an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated use this thing
    2 a : an inanimate object distinguished from a living being
    b : a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity
    c : the concrete entity as distinguished from its appearances
    d : a spatial entity
    3 : individual not a living thing in sight
    4 a : a matter of concern : affair many things to do
    b things plural : state of affairs in general or within a specified or implied sphere things are improving
    c : a particular state of affairs : situation look at this thing another way
    d : event, circumstance Meeting her was a wonderful thing.
    5 a things plural : possessions, effects pack your things
    b : whatever may be possessed or owned or be the object of a right
    c : an article of clothing not a thing to wear
    d things plural : equipment or utensils especially for a particular purpose bring the tea things
    6 a : deed, act, accomplishment do great things
    b : a product of work or activity likes to build things
    c : the aim of effort or activity the thing is to get well
    7 a : something (such as an activity) that makes a strong appeal to the individual : forte, specialty
    letting students do their own thing —Newsweek
    I think travelling is very much a novelist's thing —Philip Larkin
    b : a mild obsession or phobia
    has a thing about driving; also : the object of such an obsession or phobia
    8 a : detail, point checks every little thing
    b : a material or substance of a specified kind avoid fatty things
    9 a : idea, notion says the first thing he thinks of
    b : a piece of news or information couldn't get a thing out of him
    c : a spoken or written observation or point
    10 : the proper or fashionable way of behaving, talking, or dressing —used with the

    I don't see a lot of those that deal with unrealized future events. That doesn't mean they can't be included, but we don't use it that way, normally.

    I propose that you are using "omniscience" to mean "settled future", and in that case, there's no contest--omniscience seems to mean fatalism. But I think the terms are differently defined.

    An man living in this universe would be fated at every moment of his life.
    I think so, based on your definitions. But so is his understanding of the universe, meaning he is fated to think he's not fated, or he's fated to think he's fated.

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