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Thread: Omniscience means fatalism.

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Sounds like you're a naturalistic atheist.
    That's nice.

    Wake us up when you've got something rational to contribute.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    That's nice.

    Wake us up when you've got something rational to contribute.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    I can't wake up a dead person, stryper.

  4. #33
    Over 5000 post club quip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    If God knows something in advance then that isn't infringing on someone's will.
    You can't infringe upon what doesn't exist...in such a scenario, the will remains illusory. Your actions only appear as willful ones. You're merely God's understudy playing out your destined role as prescribed.
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I can't wake up a dead person, stryper.


    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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  7. #35
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    You can't infringe upon what doesn't exist...in such a scenario, the will remains illusory. Your actions only appear as willful ones. You're merely God's understudy playing out your destined role as prescribed.
    Only if you're "programmed" to act out on what's already been set out in advance. Otherwise, knowing future events doesn't equate to infringement. Heck, will is limited as it is to some extent because of human make up. There's no choice in feeling hungry or thirsty when dehydrated or needing sustenance by way of but simply having foreknowledge does not equate to people having some "prescribed role" either.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Only if you're "programmed" to act out on what's already been set out in advance. Otherwise, knowing future events doesn't equate to infringement. Heck, will is limited as it is to some extent because of human make up. There's no choice in feeling hungry or thirsty when dehydrated or needing sustenance by way of but simply having foreknowledge does not equate to people having some "prescribed role" either.
    How can you be sure you're not programmed as such?

    This assumption here is not mere foreknowledge but rather providence.
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Not sure how it's even a dilemma. Simply knowing in advance how someone is going to act isn't manipulating them into an act by association.
    If God knows that, when presented with a particular choice, artie will choose A and not B, what will happen when artie is presented with the choice?

    1. artie will choose A

    or

    2. artie will stamp his foot, insist "i will not be manipulated!" and choose B

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  11. #38
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    How can you be sure you're not programmed as such?

    This assumption here is not mere foreknowledge but rather providence.
    To an extent all humans are programmed to a certain degree via biology and instinct but that's a bit of a sidebar. If there's a God who's programmed people and events to act out in a certain way where there's no will involved and it's actually fated to happen out of design then that's different to simply knowing in advance what's going to happen without manipulating the outcome.

    I'm maintaining that it's my will to avoid indulging certain elements on here by way of, no matter how much time they may want to waste trying to get attention.

    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I meant in association with foreknowledge. Knowing the future is just that, it's not manipulating anyone into whatever act they do.
    You mean like clairvoyance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I'm maintaining that it's my will to avoid indulging certain elements on here by way of, no matter how much time they may want to waste trying to get attention.

    That's not working out well for you, is it? You'd best practice up a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I can't wake up a dead person, stryper.
    Oh ye of little faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Oh ye of little faith.
    It has nothing to do with my faith. It has everything to do with God's choice to give life to the dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    It has nothing to do with my faith. It has everything to do with God's choice to give life to the dead.
    God gives life to those who believe. FAITH has everything to do with it.

    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    God gives life to those who believe. FAITH has everything to do with it.

    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


    Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    Spiritually dead men cannot believe.
    In order for a person to have faith, God must make them alive in Christ and give them the gift of faith. This happens by God's grace, not by human will.
    Ephesians 2:1-10

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Spiritually dead men cannot believe.
    In order for a person to have faith, God must make them alive in Christ and give them the gift of faith. This happens by God's grace, not by human will.
    Ephesians 2:1-10
    You jump in the middle and think you have the answer.

    Grace is the gift which we access by faith. Salvation is the gift which we access by grace through faith. And before that, Paul makes it clear that we hear the Gospel and then believe.

    Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Here's the order. The Gospel is preached. We hear and then believe.

    Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

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