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Thread: Does Open Theism Question/dispute the Omniscience of God

  1. #76
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Being an open theist requires rejecting original sin as well as the omniscience (knowing all things past, present, and future) of God. And that is just for starters. The meaning of both terms have to be re-defined by the unsettled theist (open theist) in order to give the appearance of orthodoxy in discussions.

    AMR
    Assuming that you are using the definition of "original sin" from your post:

    Original sin consists in both (and in order):

    1) the guilt of Adam's first sin
    2) the want of original righteousness
    Open theism might require rejecting paradoxical definitions of omniscience, but I cannot see how it affects the understanding of "original sin." How are you defining "righteousness?" Surely you don't mean that "sinfully inclined, but hasn't had time or opportunity to sin yet" is righteous?

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    I believe that God knows all things that are knowable, and I believe that God can make anything happen that can happen. This does not apply to logical absurdities of course... God cannot "know" how to make a square with only three sides, and God cannot force someone to love him of their own free will.
    Open Theist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post

    If someone wants to present a persuasive argument for the "crystal ball" theory of omniscience, I would present this question: why should this be considered? Since such "omniscience" isn't directly stated in scripture, is there any scriptural (or even philosophical) reason of why we should consider such an explanation?
    Very simply, 'if' there is anything that God doesn't know, then He isn't God, but a product of something greater than Himself. In this respect, as much as I love the Open Theists, they have the God of the universe bowing to some other god that is usually "time." Time cannot be god nor His constraint ELSE God is then ruled by it. God is the Ruler and Maker of all things ELSE those things 'could' constrain Him. I'm not sure if such is logically followed, but such logically follows.

    In a nutshell, the difference between the Calvinist and others is who actually has the free independent will. I don't mean it to be a slam, but an end to each logical conclusion. Even 'if' I were a robot, preprogrammed, it doesn't matter as long as God is God. Because of His very nature, there is no trouble to the one trusting. Job said "even if He slay me, yet will I trust Him." The point in my thinking is "what would God have to be for you to either start or stop serving Him?" Imho, it is nothing but "just God, the way He is and my position as creation."

    I have been forever at the mercy of Romans 9:21-22 It has forever unmade me and has ruined me trying to apprehend God in my own image. The God of Romans 9 may not be what "I" envisioned God to be, but I've learned to reckon with God as He is. He welcomes reason, Isaiah 1:18 but He will always win the argument. In Him -Lon

    "
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  3. #78
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post

    There is another view that separates God from responsibility, ie, He created free men.
    I believe you adequately pinpoint the difference here. You are correct, that such assumes 'free' men. EVERYTHING of Christianity and body life screams to me: both 'slave' and taking up one's cross as well as a reminder: No our own 1 Corinthians 6:19,20 and not our own Romans 12:9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    This view requires one to eradicate the notion that He decrees everything.
    I agree. It virtually requires it. This is, indeed the stark difference. Without, again, purposefully being confrontational, it seems to me, the difference between whether we or God, should be god, imho. Why I say this? My struggle ever is to be in His image, not mine and to take up my cross and follow Him. Luke 9:23 My observation: "If" God didn't know my next choice, it would then be because of my own sovereignty (god). All of the scripture reminds me ever that I'm the creation, He the Creator, I the clay, He the Potter, I the servant, He the Owner, I the finite and insignificant, He the Infinite and the Significant. There is no good feeling for me, that the Maker would bow to me. Ultimately, such seems the focus and goal of freewill and independence and, as honestly and sincerely as I know how to say: the opposite of Christian to me. Mark 10:22

    I pray this spring boards to meaningful conversation, with these scriptures I have and must wrestle and contend. John 12:25

    To me, logically, prayerfully, meditatively, these all lead to functional and intentional Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge as well as complete sovereignty specifically because there is nothing perfect in me, or you, or the kid who was killed in a drive-by. Romans 7:18 then 2 Corinthians 5:17 demands I conform to all things good and unchanging. It amounts, logically, to a standard, relationship, and being, who is God, who cannot change in nature or character. Because of that, logically, omniscience entails all things else God could learn something (which is okay to an Open Theist), but no, that's a bad thing because then something God sees now as good, He 'could' see as bad, "If" indeed God can learn something. It can't be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Hold on, matey. That is a substantive response.

    If you use the word "ordain" and that use requires the caveats of "God is not the author," then why the need to look elsewhere for a definition when the contradiction is raised?

    Just because it's a short response, doesn't justify summary dismissal.
    For me: The very act of sin is the author of 1) freewill and 2) of things that are ordained but not desired. The very act of the Fall, imh but studied opinion, is where these dynamics began. Not a gift, but a lie: A false concept of independence that cannot be sustained because all things are sustained by Him Colossians 1:17 There is nothing, I believe scripturally, but the illusion and temporal grace of freewill independence. As far as my understanding, such simply cannot be true. It is the opposite of being owned by God, opposite of belonging to one another Romans 12:5

    Prayerfully submitted -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. #79
    Over 1500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If someone wants to present a persuasive argument for the "crystal ball" theory of omniscience, I would present this question: why should this be considered? Since such "omniscience" isn't directly stated in scripture, is there any scriptural (or even philosophical) reason of why we should consider such an explanation?
    Even if it were presented, it only confirms the flexibility of the future, or it straps God into itself. If God can see into a future He can alter, then He's not looking at a settled future. If the future He sees is settled, He's a slave to it, and the only way it works out right is if God planned everything from the beginning (Calvinism). But then you have God planning people's sin for them.

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Thanks for a detailed response. A breath of fresh air. I have always known you have a sharp mind, and it has vexed me that you are usually miserly in demonstrating the same, denying the opportunity of others to be edified. Again, thank you.
    "I'm trying, real hard."

    I want to zero in on the above as it seems to underlie most of your concerns.

    God's ordaining my post and its content includes my free liberty of spontaneity (able to choose according to my greatest inclinations when so choosing), which God has established as part of His decree. This is explained in my previously linked post on the Decree of God.

    Which is to imagine it going something like this:
    "I, God, decree (ordain) that AMR will make a post on Date/Time, including all the content therein, as the product of AMR's own free-will and rational mind, which I, God, have established in all my moral creatures."

    God knows (foreknowledge) I will do this, because He has ordained (decreed) I will do this and not refrain from doing this.

    I am the doer, the actor, the one responsible for my actions. Not God, who is responsible to no other, for responsibility assumes accountability to another.

    Now while responsibility presupposes accountability, accountability does not presuppose ability or freedom.

    Indeed, free will has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. Instead, accountability simply presupposes one who demands accountability. The sovereign public holds its elected officials accountable for their actions. The ability or freedom of these elected officials is irrelevant to the fact that the public demands accountability. Yes, some of these officials may decry their lack of ability or freedom to act, and the public will judge them accordingly: some will be rewarded, some will be punished—all according to the standards set by the public’s expectations.

    Similarly, but perfectly so, since our Sovereign God demands accountability and since God rewards righteousness and punishes wickedness, man is accountable. Moreover, God’s judgments of reward or punishment will be according to the standards He has set for our actions. These standards, the Scriptures, clearly tell us clearly that God is Sovereign, He directs all our actions, we possess no liberty of indifference when we act because we acted exactly the way we willed to act, and we will be required to account for our actions.

    Fatalism assumes that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices. A fatalistic worldview is one in which all things are left to fate, chance, and a series of causes and effects that has no intelligent guide or ultimate cause. Calvinism believes that God (not fate) is in control. Fate is this: whatever is, must be.

    But there is a difference between that and Providence.

    From the WLC Question 18. What are God’s works of providence?

    A. God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving, and governing all his creatures; ordering them, and all their actions, to his own glory. Ps. 145:17; Ps. 104:24; Isa. 28:29; Heb. 1:3; Ps. 103:19; Matt. 10:29-31; Gen. 45:7; Rom. 11:36; Isa. 63:14.

    Providence says, whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man.

    On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God’s providential control of all things, a freedom that would place them outside of God’s sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Christ is indeed continually carrying along things by His “word of power” (Heb. 1:3). If Scripture is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist.

    AMR
    Well, as you might guess, I go from "ordination" straight to "fatalism." I don't see any coherent way to say that 1. God knows everything that I will do, and 2. I have a will, are both true.

    And I don't know any way to stretch that out, so it's short and sweet this time, I'm afraid.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    "If" God didn't know my next choice, it would then be because of my own sovereignty.
    I think this is similar to what AMR said, but I still don't get it. Why is it impossible for God to create people with (libertarian free) wills?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

    Here's a post Town desperately wants you to read.

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