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Thread: Does Open Theism Question/dispute the Omniscience of God

  1. #256
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Would you feel better about a "change of heart"? A "change of direction"? Is there a limit of change that fits within what you think can "change" about God, since you said God's "changelessness" attribute is focused on His character?

    I think you keep moving the goalposts, when you say God doesn't change in character, then say God can't change His mind, even though He gives instances where he does/will, depending on the actions of men.
    Not 'change of heart.' Does God's love ever change? Can it be fickle? God is a jealous God, but we often think this means impetuous. I rather always believe God's attributes are always well thought out and ONLY the best reaction to anything, specifically because 1) even in Open Theism God is a 'Master Chess-player' and knows the appropriate response beforehand, unerringly (most of the time), therefore as a Master, there is no flaw to be made, He knows them all AND the appropriate countermove. 2) As far as I understand the scriptures, and agreeing with Calvinism and others: God is all-knowing. There is no room for a problem in one who literally knows all and says of Himself that He is good, and in Him no darkness dwells.

    On your other point: A change of direction. I think this is true. Perhaps what you mean by 'change of mind' is 'toward the person responding.' Question: Does a parent 'change' toward their child between when they are obeying and when they are disobeying? Would I, as a parent stop loving my child if they were bullying another? How would my 'mind' change? Isn't it rather that consequences are the things that change? The love hasn't changed. You actually did, and always despised bullying, did that change? Did you, in your imagination, ever believe your child was incapable of such an act? To me, it all looks like no change EXCEPT the consequence AND perhaps how love, anger, etc is EXPRESSED to the child for the appropriate response in conjunction with those consequences. In fact, it helps a child hear: I still love you very much, but I'm very disappointed in you today. True, you WEREN'T disappointed, but that wasn't a 'change of mind' but rather what was already in reserve in you BECAUSE OF YOUR character (not yelling, just emphasizing what 'immutability' means. If you have a 'good' immutable-looking quality, then certainly immutability is a good characteristic in God too). So I'm never saying "God is cement" or "a stone" but I am saying God is our Rock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I think the "whim" characterization is wrong. God is pretty clear why He changes His mind in the cases where He does--it is based on the repentance of the subject(s), either from evil to righteousness or from righteousness to evil. This accentuates His character, rather than diminishing it. In fact, if God DIDN'T acknowledge a move from evil to righteousness with a change in His intention toward that man/nation, assuming the original intention was due to the evil, He would be changing in His character.
    Doesn't it seem, rather, to destabilize the Goodness of God? That is, doesn't it require a 'contingent' in order for God to know His mind? I realize some think it necessary for relationship, but does any of my above parenting example make sense? Do "I" have to change, or do my kids have to change regarding 'their' behavior? I may "Withhold or grant" a consequence, but I really haven't changed my mind about either one, have I? Isn't it rather that 'my child' changed? Isn't the whole goal of raising children, "their" need for change? Does a parent get into it with a need to change themselves? God less so, from my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Maybe I'm not being very clear, but I don't think I'm saying what Piper is saying. I think God changed His course in some way when He "repented", and then He said he would never change His course in some other way when he said He doesn't "repent". I don't know if I can explain what the difference is, but I will try (again). I feel the need to do this, because despite your desire to define the word "repent" differently to help God save face, it doesn't help unless you can limit your new definition to one of the two cases. Just saying "repent" means "sigh" doesn't help, because God says He "sighed" before and after He says that He never "sighs". But at least I think we are on the right path together, trying to figure out what the word "repent" means in two obviously different connotations.
    Agree: Difficult passage. In one we are told "will not do" and then are told 'did it.' Do you agree it is troublesome to all theology perspectives?
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    My suggestion is that God could see the bad that came from Him putting Saul in charge. And before it got worse, God made a change--He decided to put David (I assume by this time David was already chosen in God's mind, but it isn't provided in scripture until the next chapter) in charge. Remember what I said about the lifetime appointment, as well as the continuation with progeny? These are two different things, only one of which was guaranteed to Saul at the beginning. God saw the evil Saul was doing in usurping Samuel's sacrificing role, and took away the possibility (it hadn't been promised yet, but God was considering it) of the progeny's forever continuation as of chapter 13 (this is significant, because I think it means God might have set Saul up to be the ancestor of Jesus). God then saw more evil in Saul's not fulfilling His commands to obliterate the Amalekites, and reduced the reigning of Saul's progeny even more (to "not at all"). There's one other event that suggests God saw one more act of evil in Saul's seeking out the witch of Endor, that resulted in Saul's life being terminated swiftly--an immediate end to Saul's and his progeny's influence on the throne of Israel.
    I see problems with all explanations. I realize we gravitate toward our respective assumptions. One way I think can address this, is the word 'to sigh' carries broad meaning, therefore, in Hebrew, context drives the translation and understanding of broad Hebrew words. There are disagreements even among many in Hebrew circles at times, so it is worth noting and leaving our requests for meaning in God's hands.

    That said, the first "God is not a man that He should repent," for me means "God will not make a bad decision." The second then I take to mean "God sighed that He had made Saul king." In a nutshell, it is consistent to me specifically because context drives the meaning of the translated word that can be either of these (as well as a few others).
    These passages in Samuel can only be read to say that God changed His mind with Saul. Any other understanding has to come at the expense of the actual text. Whether that's right or wrong is what's up for debate here, but it is clear from the text that God was changing in His attitude toward Saul.
    As with above, this logic is based on the idea that 'acham' is static for translation. Not many Hebrew words are. The language was new and so the vocabulary wasn't detailed, nothing like in English or Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't like the idea that God makes mistakes. If the future is really unknown, then God is going by the character of men to determine how they will rule. To me, the bible makes more sense if God doesn't know how individuals will continue to act, and He picks those that have good character at the time, because they are more likely to have good actions. But character changes in men. Maybe that idea can tie together all the different repent/not-repent/change-not passages--men exhibit a change in character when they repent, and God exhibits His changeless character when He repents. If that's what Piper was getting at, then I'm on board with it.
    Rather, for me to understand God as truly consistent (not to mention Omniscient demands it), God will use circumstances and men to meet His own purposes (which in turn have our best interests in mind as well). Romans 9:16,17

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Regarding the idea that God was angry in an unrighteous way, I don't see that conclusion as necessary. But can't God decide how far He carries a matter, showing mercy by not carrying it as far as He might have? Is that not part of His character, too, not to carry justice as far as justice is allowed?
    Yes, but let me ask: Isn't His character entirely consistent and in harmony? How could it 'get' that far that He has to 'relent' or 'repent?' Isn't His character already perfect that this wouldn't/couldn't happen? I realize 'relationship' is key to the Open Theist theology paradigms (why I'm not too upset toward them, I think they have something good in mind), but I learned and learn much better from a Master than one still learning and figuring it out as they go. The better parents are the ones that have consistent and effective parenting down. For God? I'd think perfect, thus there are none of those 'ah ha' moments that you'd have even with a very good parent. They are not omniscient, thus are not able to anticipate every eventuality. Even Open Theists believe God is at least 'omnicompetent' that no unforeseen 'oops' moments happen. There is no surprise, in other words, but this idea is held inconsistently. It is the 'circular reasoning' of Open Theism in my estimation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I think you're saying here that God can only repent of sin, so He must not ever repent--which is not what I'm saying at all. God repents of actions that didn't work out because of men's sin.
    Let me ask according to the OP: Hypothetical - God knows what happens as well as determines what happens, therefore, there is no 'change' but that which actually does take place. Some would say God then is at the mercy of 'fatalism' but this isn't true: He is at the 'mercy' of His own character. He simply doesn't wish or desire anything else. It happens exactly according to His character.

    And if God is like the unjust judge (except loving and just), then we DO win Him over. Otherwise He is not at all like the unjust judge, and the parable would have to say that the woman changed her mind and decided to accept the ill treatment.

    [Luk 18:1 KJV] And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;...
    [Luk 18:7 KJV] And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
    Let me ask, when you pray, do you say "God please do this" or do you pray "God, if it is best, I don't know, but I want to bring this to you and ask for this specifically (for myself or another person), but I don't know what is really best and I'm asking You for what is best for them (or myself). Thank You that You love them [me], even more than I do, and thank You for listening to my prayers."
    I 'think' we wrestle with this specifically because 'we' have problems. I truly believe that God's will for me, is ALWAYS better than my will for me or another's. I truly believe this.

    Such is NOT a measure of goodness or intelligence of God, unless Jesus is saying God is not good or intelligent.
    The whole parable is that God is NOT like an unjust judge, Jesus is rather saying "Pray! God is listening!" Luke 18:1-8
    Sometimes God gives us what 'we' desire but I'd suggest we'd do a lot better asking God what He wants for us most of the time.


    Even God can't change a settled future.
    You say this like "Even God cannot create a rock He cannot pick up." It is simply a strawman with a strawman problem that doesn't exist. I get this a lot, but I never understand it. God's character is good. Who cares if a future 'less than settled' is worse off than the 'fate' of the 'settled one?'

    Why would anybody care? Isn't that the end of all things? We are all like Him? 1 John 3:2 I've been called a robot and puppet for a long time now. I'm not really that bothered by it. It just doesn't bother me. I WANT to be like Him. 1 Corinthians 11:1 Luke 9:23 It seems to me "bring on the strings!" is an appropriate thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    You seem to be relying on something God has no control over. Why not be excited over God's ability to make good things come from bad (Rom 8:28), rather than that bad things cannot change (no scripture reference found )? I don't know very well how to empathize with your experiences with your father and stepfathers, as my father, while not perfect, was pretty stable. But that doesn't allow us to say that God never changes toward us for the good just because some fathers change in a bad way. I'll reiterate that this is not on a whim. God is not blowing in the wind. If He desires that we act righteously today, He won't desire tomorrow that we sin. That would be an unallowable change in his character, which YOU said was the point of the "I change not" passage. Rather, He rewards those who diligently seek Him, meaning He will change the outcome for those that change their behavior.
    Hopefully you see where immutable is a good characteristic from what I've said above. It is the 'dependable' character of parents, grandparents, and those adults we love[d] that give comfort, NOT some idea they can change. Why do I want a perfect loving God to change? Change to what? Isn't He ALREADY perfect? Isn't this a lack of trust in His character to do perfect and right already? Abraham asked 'will not the Lord do right?' Why? Because he was afraid the Lord was NOT doing right. A 'change of mind' was rather anthropomorphic: It was 'becoming' what Abraham already hoped God was but was afraid He was not that caused the problem in the first place. It is no bad thing to wrestle with God, but it may very well cause a hip out of socket for the effort. God isn't, imho, reluctant to bless us. If such is held back, there is a reason. I admit to having times and seasons in my life where I wonder what in the world He is doing, but those are 'my' moments of weakness. I know, beyond doubt, God knows what He is doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    This might be a good topic for another thread, but rabbit-trailish here. Sorry for bringing it up.
    Naw, I think it was good for passing comment and tied in. Thanks for asking. Moving on...

    If we're only willing to accept what our theology allows, then our theology is more important than what God is like. If a Calvinist can't say that God knows the possibilities, then He must say God is author of evil. You can see this in AMR's posts regularly--he vacillates between saying that God can see ahead to know how we are going to act under different circumstances and saying that God knows because He causes. It's a bit of a whack-a-mole scenario.
    See, to me, same topic so not a rabbit trail persay. God Interacts with us. I think there is some credibility to 'another avenue' or 'the road not taken.' God 'can' use avenues that wind up in the exact same result for good because He works all things for good. It is my estimation that 'rocks will cry out' if we don't speak, for instance. That said, there is but one road taken, and another never taken. Does God know it? I'd at least say 'sure,' such is within foreknowledge parameters. The Arminian thinks God made choice due to man's choices, where as Calvinists believe man's choice are subject to God's guidance ala James 4:15

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Only if you define "surprise" as "not knowing ahead of time". Which begs the question, doesn't it?
    It does. If 'time' is always a factor when trying to talk about 'no time' then that analogy can only go so far down the road. For me? Not a problem, I'm finite moving TOWARD the infinite. Ecclesiastes 3:11 I'm just not there yet 1 John 3:2

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Amen and amen!
    Again, I appreciate your input and query. Those "oh I see why you hold to Open Theism (or any other theology other than our own), it helps if God and scriptures get the spotlight for it. We may not agree, but I've learned to appreciate another. There are just not very many Calvinists. It'd be a lonelier heaven without thinking that a great many outside of my specific theology aren't with me in paradise where a lot of this will either be resolved or 'just not really matter.' Both ideas bring hope.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  2. #257
    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    That said, the first "God is not a man that He should repent," for me means "God will not make a bad decision." The second then I take to mean "God sighed that He had made Saul king." In a nutshell, it is consistent to me specifically because context drives the meaning of the translated word that can be either of these (as well as a few others).
    It seems a lot simpler to me to understand that "God is not a man that He should repent" has its intended scope for that specific action and instance. Given that other passages (even a few verses above) it did say God repented, it cannot be setting an iron-clad rule. Even if it was setting a general rule, general rules may have exceptions, but clearly this was applying to whether he would put Saul back as king, and shouldn't be construed as an iron-clad degree extending past its intended scope.

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  4. #258
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    It seems a lot simpler to me to understand that "God is not a man that He should repent" has its intended scope for that specific action and instance. Given that other passages (even a few verses above) it did say God repented, it cannot be setting an iron-clad rule. Even if it was setting a general rule, general rules may have exceptions, but clearly this was applying to whether he would put Saul back as king, and shouldn't be construed as an iron-clad degree extending past its intended scope.
    Disagree. Such imho is poor conceptual grasp of context. There is no qualifier for 'does not repent.' It is said, unequivocally. THEN when the next is read, context would, for me, CLEARLY mean something else. It to me, is more linguistically and contextually consistent.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Disagree. Such imho is poor conceptual grasp of context. There is no qualifier for 'does not repent.' It is said, unequivocally. THEN when the next is read, context would, for me, CLEARLY mean something else. It to me, is more linguistically and contextually consistent.
    If there is no context then it is a contradiction inherent in the text. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33) and the scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35) so such cannot have been the intent. This is not a complete list, but look at all these instances involving God and repentance. Most of them state that God repents or repented, only a few say he will not repent.

    The normal resolution of this language would be that the repenting has a specific scope, just like if you said "I will not leave" no one holds you to that forever for the rest of your life simply because you didn't state the obvious qualifier.

    Numbers 23:19 KJV
    (19) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Jeremiah 26:13 KJV
    (13) Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

    Ezekiel 24:14 KJV
    (14) I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

    Joel 2:12-14 KJV
    (12) Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
    (13) And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
    (14) Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

    Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
    (9) Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
    (10) And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    1 Chronicles 21:15 KJV
    (15) And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

    Amos 7:2-6 KJV
    (2) And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
    (3) The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
    (4) Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
    (5) Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
    (6) The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

    Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
    (5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    (6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    Exodus 32:14 KJV
    (14) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    Judges 2:18 KJV
    (18) And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

    1 Samuel 15:11 KJV
    (11) It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

    1 Samuel 15:35 KJV
    (35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

    2 Samuel 24:16 KJV
    (16) And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

    Psalms 110:4 KJV
    (4) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

    Jeremiah 26:19 KJV
    (19) Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

  6. #260
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If there is no context then it is a contradiction inherent in the text. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33) and the scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35) so such cannot have been the intent. This is not a complete list, but look at all these instances involving God and repentance. Most of them state that God repents or repented, only a few say he will not repent.

    The normal resolution of this language would be that the repenting has a specific scope, just like if you said "I will not leave" no one holds you to that forever for the rest of your life simply because you didn't state the obvious qualifier.

    Numbers 23:19 KJV
    (19) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Jeremiah 26:13 KJV
    (13) Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
    Greatly disagree: "I will 'stop' my pronouncement against you." Not a "change of mind." It is and always will be a change of condition based on conditional action. Such is the 'child' changing his mind and actions, not God changing. Relational? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Ezekiel 24:14 KJV
    (14) I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
    Similarly, 'according to "thy" ways an appropriate consequence. There is no change of mind (as you also acquiesce).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Joel 2:12-14 KJV
    (12) Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
    (13) And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
    (14) Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
    No difference, no change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
    (9) Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
    (10) And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
    1) said in both "who knows?" 2) It is regarding consequences and the appropriate one for appropriate actions. Some of this lends to 'scale balance' theology and works based theology among many Christians and cults, but this isn't about scales and balances nor about changing what cannot change in God. It is about recognizing consequences of actions. "Perhaps" then becomes 'this may be the consequence for this change of behavior.' God changing His mind? It is about imperfect man trying to understand the perfect ways of God and the consequences and grace between imperfection and Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    1 Chronicles 21:15 KJV
    (15) And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
    Not a change of mind: "It is enough" is a staying hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Amos 7:2-6 KJV
    (2) And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
    (3) The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
    (4) Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
    (5) Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
    (6) The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

    Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
    (5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    (6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    Exodus 32:14 KJV
    (14) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    Judges 2:18 KJV
    (18) And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

    1 Samuel 15:11 KJV
    (11) It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

    1 Samuel 15:35 KJV
    (35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

    2 Samuel 24:16 KJV
    (16) And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

    Psalms 110:4 KJV
    (4) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

    Jeremiah 26:19 KJV
    (19) Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
    I believe you collect my thoughts and understanding of scriptures here without going through every one. God never does change His mind. The 'action' is changed according to our choices. Grace certainly is a change of consequence where the bulk lands upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Because God cannot change, Christ was necessary. People ask often: Why did God have to choose this way? One of the foremost answers is that God cannot change those consequence and they fell upon the Lord Jesus Christ. He took them. God planned from creation to save mankind (as far as I know theology) by removing the consequences of sin and death. That's good news for both of us, whether we agree on the rest of this
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter
    1 Chronicles 21:15 KJV
    (15) And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I believe you collect my thoughts and understanding of scriptures here without going through every one. God never does change His mind. The 'action' is changed according to our choices. Grace certainly is a change of consequence where the bulk lands upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Because God cannot change, Christ was necessary. People ask often: Why did God have to choose this way? One of the foremost answers is that God cannot change those consequence and they fell upon the Lord Jesus Christ. He took them. God planned from creation to save mankind (as far as I know theology) by removing the consequences of sin and death. That's good news for both of us, whether we agree on the rest of this
    What choice of humanity was it that changed God's choice in the example above? Dying? It's not like they had a choice about the dying. That's an example of God changing his action in response to the effects of his own action, and if the original account is considered in context, it even stopped short of what he had promised.

    1 Chronicles 21:10-12 KJV
    (10) Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
    (11) So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee
    (12) Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.

    David chose the punishment of three days. God stopped his own punishment short, and as the account relates, in response to the effect of the punishment itself. For all intensive purposes, it certainly looks like God promised three days punishment, had his mind set to punish for three days, and then changed his mind as he was destroying, as he beheld.

    That's what the words actually say. Can anyone be faulted for believing the words he chose to give us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    That's what the words actually say. Can anyone be faulted for believing the words he chose to give us?
    How selective is YOUR reading comprehension?


    1Ch 21:9

      And Jehovah spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, 

    1Ch 21:10
      Go and speak to David, saying, So says Jehovah: I offer you three things. Choose one of them so that I may do it to you. 

    1Ch 21:11
      And Gad came to David and said to him, So says Jehovah, Choose for yourself: 

    1Ch 21:12
      either three years of famine, or three months to be swept away before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtake you, or else three days of the sword of Jehovah, even the plague in the land, and the angel of Jehovah destroying throughout all the border of Israel. And now say what word I shall bring again to Him who sent me. 

    1Ch 21:13
      And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Let me fall now into the hand of Jehovah, for His mercies are very great. But do not let me fall into the hand of man. 

    1Ch 21:14
      And Jehovah sent a plague on Israel. And there fell seventy thousand men of Israel. 

    1Ch 21:15

      And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. And as he was destroying, Jehovah looked. And He repented of the evil and said to the angel who destroyed, Enough! Stay your hand now! And the angel of Jehovah stood by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 

    1Ch 21:16
      David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of Jehovah standing between the earth and the heavens, and his sword drawn in his hand, stretched out over Jerusalem. And David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces. 

    1Ch 21:17
      And David said to God, Did not I command to number the people? I am the one who has sinned and done evil indeed. But these sheep, what have they done? I pray You, let Your hand be on me, O Jehovah my God, and on my father's house, but not on Your people, that they should be plagued. 

    David Builds an Altar

    1Ch 21:18
      And the angel of Jehovah commanded Gad to say to David that David should go up and set up an altar to Jehovah in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 

    1Ch 21:19
      And David went up at the word of Gad which he spoke in the name of Jehovah. 

    1Ch 21:20
      And Ornan turned back and saw the angel. And his four sons with him hid themselves. And Ornan was threshing wheat. 

    1Ch 21:21
      And David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David. And he went out of the threshing-floor and bowed to David with his face to the ground. 

    1Ch 21:22
      Then David said to Ornan, Give me the place of this threshing-floor, so that I may build an altar in it to Jehovah. You shall give it to me for the full price, so that the plague may be stayed from the people. 
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 3000 post club Rosenritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    How selective is YOUR reading comprehension?

    Spoiler

    1Ch 21:9

      And Jehovah spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, 

    1Ch 21:10
      Go and speak to David, saying, So says Jehovah: I offer you three things. Choose one of them so that I may do it to you. 

    1Ch 21:11
      And Gad came to David and said to him, So says Jehovah, Choose for yourself: 

    1Ch 21:12
      either three years of famine, or three months to be swept away before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtake you, or else three days of the sword of Jehovah, even the plague in the land, and the angel of Jehovah destroying throughout all the border of Israel. And now say what word I shall bring again to Him who sent me. 

    1Ch 21:13
      And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Let me fall now into the hand of Jehovah, for His mercies are very great. But do not let me fall into the hand of man. 

    1Ch 21:14
      And Jehovah sent a plague on Israel. And there fell seventy thousand men of Israel. 

    1Ch 21:15

      And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. And as he was destroying, Jehovah looked. And He repented of the evil and said to the angel who destroyed, Enough! Stay your hand now! And the angel of Jehovah stood by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 

    1Ch 21:16
      David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of Jehovah standing between the earth and the heavens, and his sword drawn in his hand, stretched out over Jerusalem. And David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces. 

    1Ch 21:17
      And David said to God, Did not I command to number the people? I am the one who has sinned and done evil indeed. But these sheep, what have they done? I pray You, let Your hand be on me, O Jehovah my God, and on my father's house, but not on Your people, that they should be plagued. 

    David Builds an Altar

    1Ch 21:18
      And the angel of Jehovah commanded Gad to say to David that David should go up and set up an altar to Jehovah in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. 

    1Ch 21:19
      And David went up at the word of Gad which he spoke in the name of Jehovah. 

    1Ch 21:20
      And Ornan turned back and saw the angel. And his four sons with him hid themselves. And Ornan was threshing wheat. 

    1Ch 21:21
      And David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David. And he went out of the threshing-floor and bowed to David with his face to the ground. 

    1Ch 21:22
      Then David said to Ornan, Give me the place of this threshing-floor, so that I may build an altar in it to Jehovah. You shall give it to me for the full price, so that the plague may be stayed from the people. 
    Unless you can prove that the verses are not chronologically ordered, God first chose to stay the hand of the angel in reaction to his own destroying, and then David's actions followed. The actions that God gave to David (and his obedience) followed God's decision and change of action that he had already initiated.

    By David's word to Ornan in verse 22, we may infer that David believed that the stay of the angel (the continued stay) was dependent upon his obedience in this manner, but the account literally tells us that God changed his action first, then demanded David's compliance. Again, if I am to be faulted, it is for believing that passage as it is written.

  10. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Unless you can prove that the verses are not chronologically ordered, God first chose to stay the hand of the angel in reaction to his own destroying, and then David's actions followed. The actions that God gave to David (and his obedience) followed God's decision and change of action that he had already initiated.

    By David's word to Ornan in verse 22, we may infer that David believed that the stay of the angel (the continued stay) was dependent upon his obedience in this manner, but the account literally tells us that God changed his action first, then demanded David's compliance. Again, if I am to be faulted, it is for believing that passage as it is written.
    It doesn't have to be proved. Often Hebrew conveyance is exactly that. Provable? Whatever 'hunch' we follow should be consistent. As I've said, I do believe that my understanding is consistent as well as standard (what most Christians who have read their bible or at least this portion believe).

    While I don't try to hold to majority over anybody in these conversations, specifically because OV is not, I do think it ever important to read what most people believe and think for the following reasons 1) 2 Peter 1:20 (scripture no less than prophecy) 2) Galatians 6:6 (Galatians 2:2-6 contextually) 3) Romans 12:5 4) Matt Slick represents the Omniscient view in regard to this scripture to a point. I think Matt also, should read the rest of these scriptures with you and I, however.

    Clearly David did intercede. You ask how I know the verses aren't chronological? For me, easy: The destruction had already stopped. Why is that essential? Between 1 Chronicles 21:15 and 16, the action stopped. There is every reason to at least entertain Hebrew form in describing this story giving an overview, then giving details.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It doesn't have to be proved. Often Hebrew conveyance is exactly that. Provable? Whatever 'hunch' we follow should be consistent. As I've said, I do believe that my understanding is consistent as well as standard (what most Christians who have read their bible or at least this portion believe).

    While I don't try to hold to majority over anybody in these conversations, specifically because OV is not, I do think it ever important to read what most people believe and think for the following reasons 1) 2 Peter 1:20 (scripture no less than prophecy) 2) Galatians 6:6 (Galatians 2:2-6 contextually) 3) Romans 12:5 4) Matt Slick represents the Omniscient view in regard to this scripture to a point. I think Matt also, should read the rest of these scriptures with you and I, however.

    Clearly David did intercede. You ask how I know the verses aren't chronological? For me, easy: The destruction had already stopped. Why is that essential? Between 1 Chronicles 21:15 and 16, the action stopped. There is every reason to at least entertain Hebrew form in describing this story giving an overview, then giving details.
    Just summarizing this, the straightforward reading (assuming it is normally and chronologically written) did say that God ceased destroying in reaction to the effect, and then ordered David to make a sacrifice. You said this straight-forward reading was "selective reading."

    In its place, you say that you can follow a hunch that you don't have to prove, that the passage must be given out of order. Lon, I'm reading this passage carefully for any sort of discrepancy that might allow that type of wiggle room but I'm not seeing anything there for you. I could easily draw this out on a story-board step by step and it would flow perfectly.

    David did not intercede, that is not how the account tells us it happened. He did what he was told because the Lord Himself was interceding, and I have little doubt that had David not obeyed that God would have told the angel to finish its course... but as portrayed by that passage as written, the Lord stopped before anyone (other than the angel) did anything at all... except for the people who died, of course. Does dying count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    Just summarizing this, the straightforward reading (assuming it is normally and chronologically written) did say that God ceased destroying in reaction to the effect, and then ordered David to make a sacrifice. You said this straight-forward reading was "selective reading."

    In its place, you say that you can follow a hunch that you don't have to prove, that the passage must be given out of order. Lon, I'm reading this passage carefully for any sort of discrepancy that might allow that type of wiggle room but I'm not seeing anything there for you. I could easily draw this out on a story-board step by step and it would flow perfectly.
    ...AND I can do so, even using Genesis 1,2 as an exact model. Sorry, you really have to KNOW (fact) that Hebrew writing does this OFTEN. There is no " " that would work. It is just special pleading. Now for me to prove it? I can show such and as I stated, Matt Slick does this as well so it isn't just me.

    David did not intercede, that is not how the account tells us it happened.
    Disagree:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post


    1Ch 21:17
      And David said to God, Did not I command to number the people? I am the one who has sinned and done evil indeed. But these sheep, what have they done? I pray You, let Your hand be on me, O Jehovah my God, and on my father's house, but not on Your people, that they should be plagued. 


    1Ch 21:22
      Then David said to Ornan, Give me the place of this threshing-floor, so that I may build an altar in it to Jehovah. You shall give it to me for the full price, so that the plague may be stayed from the people. 
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    He did what he was told because the Lord Himself was interceding, and I have little doubt that had David not obeyed that God would have told the angel to finish its course... but as portrayed by that passage as written, the Lord stopped before anyone (other than the angel) did anything at all... except for the people who died, of course. Does dying count?
    A little confusing. To me, it seems your first statement "...had David not obeyed...God would have told the angel to finish [his/her] course...." acquiesces the whole point I was trying to make about the order.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    ...AND I can do so, even using Genesis 1,2 as an exact model. Sorry, you really have to KNOW (fact) that Hebrew writing does this OFTEN. There is no " " that would work. It is just special pleading. Now for me to prove it? I can show such and as I stated, Matt Slick does this as well so it isn't just me.

    Disagree:

    A little confusing. To me, it seems your first statement "...had David not obeyed...God would have told the angel to finish [his/her] course...." acquiesces the whole point I was trying to make about the order.
    There's an important difference here Lon. The mathematical certainty of the creation order and defined events dictate the interweave of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. The only thing dictating an non-chronological order is your own idea that we were challenging with this process, and there's no hints or clues in the text to support it otherwise.

    And the literal straight-forward chronological reading works perfectly well in 1 Chronicles 21, unlike the Genesis 1 & 2 combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    There's an important difference here Lon. The mathematical certainty of the creation order and defined events dictate the interweave of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. The only thing dictating an non-chronological order is your own idea that we were challenging with this process, and there's no hints or clues in the text to support it otherwise.
    Disagree. I already gave them. Rosen. I really like you so I say this with all charity I can muster: Sometimes you are a hard-head. I've already given the idea with substantiation (verses) why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    And the literal straight-forward chronological reading works perfectly well in 1 Chronicles 21, unlike the Genesis 1 & 2 combo.
    Disagree. The angel was already there, holding a sword. David saw and pleaded. THAT is the order. I DO see your thoughts on the matter and give them credence. The ONLY interpretation viable? John Piper Benson and of course others. Not just what we want to believe, but what scripture may indeed be saying to us. I'm not so invested in traditional theology that I cannot be moved, but I tend to notice when another is getting vested.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Disagree. I already gave them. Rosen. I really like you so I say this with all charity I can muster: Sometimes you are a hard-head. I've already given the idea with substantiation (verses) why.


    Disagree. The angel was already there, holding a sword. David saw and pleaded. THAT is the order. I DO see your thoughts on the matter and give them credence. The ONLY interpretation viable? John Piper Benson and of course others. Not just what we want to believe, but what scripture may indeed be saying to us. I'm not so invested in traditional theology that I cannot be moved, but I tend to notice when another is getting vested.
    I could animate that passage with storyboards drawn from that precise order that scripture provides and there would be no contradiction.

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