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Thread: Monergist or Synergist

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    It is certainly a question of who is working, but Paul's identification of those works with "I" show that this is not simply a passive allowance for God to work through us. It is bound up with our very understanding and will. As George has (I believe rightly) pointed out, the believer is brought into great freedom that the unbeliever can't conceive of - because of his bondage to sin.
    You frame your presupposition that God doing the work makes humans mere puppets. You express that the person dead in sin certainly had no will by which s/he could be saved, but after being made alive in Christ, s/he actively cooperates with God in either willful obedience or willful disobedience that results in our sanctification...or not...
    Question: Did the regenerate man perform his own crucifixion or did God crucify him with/in Christ? When that person is physically alive in the body is it Christ physically living or is it that person? How is the life, lived in the body actually lived? Paul answers this. It is lived by faith.
    Who gives the gift of faith is it God or do we manufacture that faith on our own? Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is God's gift. He gives it. He works it out in our lives. We act it out.
    So, does our acting out what God has ordained make us puppets? You say, Yes. I say no.

    Romans 9:18-26,30-33
    [18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
    [19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
    [20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
    [21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
    [22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
    [23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
    [24]And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
    [25]Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, “Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.”
    [26]And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”
    [30]What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place.
    [31]But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.
    [32]Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.
    [33]God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”
    My suggestion to you and George is that you leave the law out of your sanctification. You were not saved by works and you are not sanctified by works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Do you believe you can choose whether to carry out the works that God gives you as a justified, regenerate believer?

    Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    I Corinthians 9:24-27

    Is Paul a passive (essentially) observer in all this?
    We can obey or not obey. God will sanctify us regardless. God will accomplish every work He has for us to do. We cannot thwart God's will or God's work within us or through us. We do not have that kind of power to thwart God.

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    Over 1500 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    This is the amazing grace of God. The unconditional promises, pardon, and presence of the Holy Spirit in every member of Christ's spiritual body IS the assurance of everlasting life . . realized through the Godly gift of faith to rest and trust in Jesus Christ for any and all righteousness in this lifetime.
    Indeed, the promises and provisions of God are many and beyond our capacity to replicate or imitate. This is not an issue. But while the Holy Spirit is the seal of God upon the believer, why would it be necessary (if we in no sense work) to warn the believer of this :

    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Ephesians 4:30

    This is no question of working for salvation, but of working to be fruitful in what God has given us. And even then, it isn't about us doing things of our own selves (which Paul says must die daily) but rather building upon the only foundation that can be efficaciously built upon - Christ. We die...yet we work.

    For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
    According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    I Corinthians 3:9-11
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to nikolai_42 For Your Post:

    George Affleck (August 7th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You frame your presupposition that God doing the work makes humans mere puppets. You express that the person dead in sin certainly had no will by which s/he could be saved, but after being made alive in Christ, s/he actively cooperates with God in either willful obedience or willful disobedience that results in our sanctification...or not...
    Question: Did the regenerate man perform his own crucifixion or did God crucify him with/in Christ? When that person is physically alive in the body is it Christ physically living or is it that person? How is the life, lived in the body actually lived? Paul answers this. It is lived by faith.
    Who gives the gift of faith is it God or do we manufacture that faith on our own? Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is God's gift. He gives it. He works it out in our lives. We act it out.
    So, does our acting out what God has ordained make us puppets? You say, Yes. I say no.

    Romans 9:18-26,30-33

    My suggestion to you and George is that you leave the law out of your sanctification. You were not saved by works and you are not sanctified by works.
    Was Abraham acting by law when he believed God and did what God directed him to do?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to nikolai_42 For Your Post:

    Derf (August 8th, 2018)

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    Reading the Bible is a necessary part of the Christian life and where the Holy Spirit can sanctify our hearts and minds.

    It is God who makes this possible and who speaks to our spirits that we should do this.

    But He does not pick up the Bible, turn the pages and read for us. He does not meditate, learn or profit from it. We are active in this process just as He was active in making it possible, bringing it about and illuminating our minds as we read.

    None of this has anything to do with the doctrines of justification or salvation. With regard to these principles, we are entirely passive. But sanctification is not exactly like these other doctrines because of the new creature that has been created.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Was Abraham acting by law when he believed God and did what God directed him to do?
    What relevance does your question have to sanctification, monergism or syncretism?
    Was Abraham chosen by God and ordained to be the father by which God would condescend to men? Did Abraham generate his own faith or was it a gift from God? Did God sanctify Abraham by Abraham's works or by God's ordained process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Reading the Bible is a necessary part of the Christian life and where the Holy Spirit can sanctify our hearts and minds.

    It is God who makes this possible and who speaks to our spirits that we should do this.

    But He does not pick up the Bible, turn the pages and read for us. He does not meditate, learn or profit from it. We are active in this process just as He was active in making it possible, bringing it about and illuminating our minds as we read.

    None of this has anything to do with the doctrines of justification or salvation. With regard to these principles, we are entirely passive. But sanctification is not exactly like these other doctrines because of the new creature that has been created.
    Does God ordain the actions of believers and unbelievers alike? Does God prompt you to open your Bible or is God passive and uncaring? Does God even give approval to lusts of the flesh and pride of life we still exhibit? (This is not to say God approves the sin, but that God gives a "yes" to letting us fall in sin.) Or is God passive and he just lets us do our own thing so that we either sanctify ourselves or we don't?
    It is a slippery slope of legalism and return back to the law when we declare ourselves to be responsible for our own sanctification.

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    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Does God ordain the actions of believers and unbelievers alike? Does God prompt you to open your Bible or is God passive and uncaring? Does God even give approval to lusts of the flesh and pride of life we still exhibit? (This is not to say God approves the sin, but that God gives a "yes" to letting us fall in sin.) Or is God passive and he just lets us do our own thing so that we either sanctify ourselves or we don't?
    It is a slippery slope of legalism and return back to the law when we declare ourselves to be responsible for our own sanctification.
    I am really, really tired of you not reading with comprehension. You are one of the worst I have seen. It makes for a very bad reputation when you make comments that ignore what others say and go over ground again and again that has already been agreed upon as if it was somehow new! And for some reason you don't see this as a problem!

    I said;
    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Reading the Bible is a necessary part of the Christian life and where the Holy Spirit can sanctify our hearts and minds.
    It is God who makes this possible and who speaks to our spirits that we should do this.
    To which you immediately reply;
    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Does God prompt you to open your Bible or is God passive and uncaring?
    And to make it worse, you top it off by suggesting that I advocate a do-it-yourself sanctification which you know very well is a complete fabrication.

    This is just not normal behavior.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    I am really, really tired of you not reading with comprehension. You are one of the worst I have seen. It makes for a very bad reputation when you make comments that ignore what others say and go over ground again and again that has already been agreed upon as if it was somehow new! And for some reason you don't see this as a problem!

    I said;


    To which you immediately reply;


    And to make it worse, you top it off by suggesting that I advocate a do-it-yourself sanctification which you know very well is a complete fabrication.

    This is just not normal behavior.
    George, as long as you insist on assisting God with your sanctification we will disagree. I have pointed out why I consider it a reversion to legalism. I'm okay with you disagreeing.
    It seems that you think mixing syncretism and monergism equals Calvinism. I think it equals Arminianism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God through the Holy Spirit alone,
    as opposed to Synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God's grace in order to be regenerated.

    What view do you hold and why?
    The Calvinist doctrine of efficacious grace and the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace are both false doctrines.

    The Calvinist doctrine of efficavious grace presumes that God's grace is given before the foundation of the world to those that He predestined for salvation.
    The Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace presumes that God's grace is given to otherwise irredeemable people to grant them the ability to choose between good and evil.

    However, the Bible shows that God's grace is individuals finding favor in the sight of God through the individual's faith (choices of beliefs and actions).
    In other words, God's grace does not precede and enable an individual's choices (Synergism), nor does God's grace predetermine an individual's choices (Monergism), but God's grace happens as a result of God being pleased with the individual's choices (faith).

    God alone chooses whether He is pleased with an individual's choices and whether that individual's choices pleases Him enough for Him to grant that person eternal life.
    Therefore, it is up to us to try to please God and avoid displeasing God, but whether God is pleased with us or not is up to God alone.


    John 8:29
    29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.



    1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    Last edited by genuineoriginal; August 8th, 2018 at 04:55 PM.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Open Theists . . . get offended when it is suggested Christians should live in the way of Godly obedience.
    That is not true of all Open Theists.
    I am an Open Theist that believes that Christians must repent and obey in order to be saved.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    What relevance does your question have to sanctification, monergism or syncretism?
    Was Abraham chosen by God and ordained to be the father by which God would condescend to men? Did Abraham generate his own faith or was it a gift from God? Did God sanctify Abraham by Abraham's works or by God's ordained process?
    I think Nikki's next question was going to be: "Then who had sex with Sarah?"

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