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Thread: The Restitution Of All Things AKA Universalism

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    How will they become righteous?
    Like anyone else, by the grace of God through faith (Eph.2:8-10).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    No.
    I am BETTER THAN HITLER.
    What makes you better than Hitler?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Is this authorized, authoritative Church teaching? Did the authentic Church teachers ever teach anything resembling 'Christian Universalism?"
    Define "authorized, authoritative Church teaching".

    Define "authentic Church teachers".

    Scripture teaches universalism. Any opinions to the contrary are lies.

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    Over 500 post club Idolater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    What makes you better than Hitler?
    Me not exterminating 40% of the world's Jewish population.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Define "authorized, authoritative Church teaching".
    The college of Church bishops' authoritative teachings on matters of faith and morals.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Define "authentic Church teachers".
    The college of Church bishops.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Scripture teaches universalism.
    No, it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Any opinions to the contrary are lies.
    lol
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    So you think that they will believe in Christ, after they die? Even though Christ Himself said Luke 16:31 KJV? I don't think so.
    It contradicts what Jesus said in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. He wanted someone to come back from the dead and warn them of the torment, but Abraham said that they had Moses and the Prophets. If they won't believe them neither would they believe someone coming back from the dead.
    Some people would question if he had actually died. OTOH if it were the resurrected Jesus, and they could stick their hands into His side, or see Him suddenly appear in a room with closed doors, as doubting Thomas did, then they might believe:

    John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Thomas was an unbeliever in Jesus' resurrection while he was refusing to believe in it unless he saw Him with His own eyes, put his hands in his side, etc. Sounds like a lot of atheists,
    agnostics, etc. When will they get the chance for salvation (seeing with their own eyes) that Thomas obtained?

    Compare also:

    Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago
    in sackcloth and ashes.

    Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented,
    sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

    Will Tyre & Sidon be damned forever because they didn't get a chance to see what would have brought about their repentance?

    Reading the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke's gospel it becomes clear why a great chasm was fixed in order that those who would pass from heaven to hell may not be able, nor may any pass from hell to heaven. Because the rich man showed no sign of repentance even though he was in torment, he still looked upon Lazarus with the same contempt "send Lazarus....."
    Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

    "If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

    The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

    Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

    "Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

    When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

    The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

    " “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

    " "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

    The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

    In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

    Tom Talbott said:

    "As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/0...t-perspective/

    We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

    Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

    Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways made smooth;
    Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Me not exterminating 40% of the world's Jewish population.
    Except we don't know what you would do if you had Hitler's power. God knows whether you'ld be worse or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Except we don't know what you would do if you had Hitler's power. God knows whether you'ld be worse or not.
    are we judged by our actions or our potential actions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    The college of Church bishops' authoritative teachings on matters of faith and morals.
    The college of Church bishops.
    No, it doesn't.
    lol
    Research the viewpoints of an orthodox universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church).

    If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

    If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    are we judged by our actions or our potential actions?
    The subject isn't how we are judged. It's who would be worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Whoever Dieter is, he completely leaves out God's justice. A loving God will not turn His back on justice. You promote an unjust god who ignores sin and lawbreaking. There is no creator God in the Bible who ignores injustice because He loves lawbreakers.
    The God of Creation is a just judge. He condemns wickedness and embraces Jesus holiness. Those whom God has placed in Christ will be saved. Those whom God has left in their sin will be condemned.
    FL, you will stand before God. Will you justly be condemned? If not, what is your defense before the Holy Judge?
    Dear Menna: I will say it again (and again if necessary.} The very foundation of all God is flows from the Essence of His glorious Being. God is not justice, He IS Love,Spirit, Light, Fire & Saviour. He is indeed just! His justice is in the realm of perfection. All of us can trust the Fire One to accomplish His goals with absolute precision. There is no free ride, no get out of jail free card, the Judge of all the world does right. He brings every last rebel home to Himself changed & transformed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Nope. Halfwit 'Christian Universalists' be like, 'You're no better than mass murdering monsters in God's eyes.'
    If your soul was in Hitler's body since the time of his birth, who can say you wouldn't have been worse than him. Only God would know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    The subject isn't how we are judged. It's who would be worse.
    No, the subject is who IS worse. Big difference.

    Moving the goalposts doesn't bode well for your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Is he? Are you better than him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    The subject isn't how we are judged. It's who would be worse.
    Question for you.

    Does the Bible teach that all sins are equal? or that all sins are not equal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Does the Bible teach that all sins are equal? or that all sins are not equal?
    Answer for you=

    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

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