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Thread: The Restitution Of All Things AKA Universalism

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    The wages/ration of sin is death. Not endless death. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & Love Omnipotent Crucified shall be ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15:28). End of the story.

    Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation. Ooops.
    Nope
    The elect will be raised to heaven. Not all humanity is elect. In fact some do not know God at all.

    1 Corinthians 15:22-34
    [22]Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.
    [23]But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.
    [24]After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power.
    [25]For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet.
    [26]And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    [27]For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
    [28]Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
    [29]If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?
    [30]And why should we ourselves risk our lives hour by hour?
    [31]For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, that I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what Christ Jesus our Lord has done in you.
    [32]And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those people of Ephesus—if there will be no resurrection from the dead? And if there is no resurrection, “Let’s feast and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
    [33]Don’t be fooled by those who say such things, for “bad company corrupts good character.”
    [34]Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all.

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    Dear J.R. How did you become a sinner? The work of our Father in Adam1 is brought to completion In His beloved Son, the Last Adam! If you truly desire to grasp some of what is declared as a "mystery" in the Scripture, you may want to take a quiet moment before the Father to contemplate a voice from the past. If not, simply ignore it!

    Please welcome A.E Saxby

    http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/...nsummation.htm

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Nope
    The elect will be raised to heaven. Not all humanity is elect. In fact some do not know God at all.
    Dear Menno: All humanity is indeed NOT the elect! And, the vast segments of them know not God at all: YET!

    All humanity, however, has been made by God, for God, & whose final destiny is God! "He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of the all. Remember that powerful koine ta panta?

    "God is [the] Saviour of all mankind>>>>>>>>>

    ESPECIALLY

    those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."


    “Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God's love encompasses us completely. ... He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken.” ― Dieter F. Uchtdorf-

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    The Scripture=

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/roma...2-compare.html

    The Wrath Of God

    The question=


    What does the koine katartízō from katá means?

    The Answer=

    To render i.e to fit, sound, complete.

    To mend (what has been broken or rent) to repair.

    To repair what has been broken or rent.

    To complete.

    To fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust.

    To fit or frame for one's self.

    To prepare for one's self.

    To strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.

    To make one what he aught to be

    Could it be possible the hilasmos of the holos will actually make the broken wrecks of Adam1 what they aught to be?

    Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

  6. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    That's your imagination speaking, not anything i've said. IOW you are misrepresenting my position. Furthermore, even after i told you it isn't my position, you say that it is.
    No, not really. 'CU' requires something that is like the authentic Christian teaching of purgatory, except that it is for all people, and not just for bona fide Christians, which is what the authorized Christian teaching is on the matter.

    It completely disregards the eternal nature of the inherent penalties that are due us for our sins, which is paid for by Christ's passion, for Christians; those who believe in Christ; those who believe He is risen from the dead. But not for everybody.

    If your 'CU' flavor doesn't include anything like this 'purgatory-type' notion, then it's even worse, because then you have no answer for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all the other vicious mass murderers throughout history. And those are just the 20th century's offering. Murder goes all the way back to Cain, the father of murderers everywhere, and murder is illicit killing of an innocent person with full knowledge, deliberate consent, and with malice aforethought; iow a completely free choice; where choosing not to kill was a totally available option, and the murderer chose to kill anyway.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    God will judge the world by people's hearts. Not their outward superficial actions.
    Murder is not just killing, it is unlawful killing of an innocent person with malice aforethought. It is not 'superficial.'
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    So you have no place to say who is more evil than others.
    Murder is defined as a truly free choice to kill unlawfully an innocent person with full knowledge and with deliberate consent. That is more evil than not murdering.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Given Hitler's power would you be any better than he was?
    Yes. All murderers are worse than all non-murderers, and I am not a murderer. That you are suggesting that you would freely choose to murder given Hitler's position and circumstances is reason enough to mark you as a false teacher, a wolf, an accuser of the brethren. Get lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Or worse? Who was worse, Hitler or Saul who became Paul the apostle, the "worst of sinners"?
    'no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him' 1Jo3:15KJV
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Is he?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Are you better than him?
    YES. I am BETTER THAN HITLER.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    I think it was
    Spoiler
    a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

    1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

    2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

    3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

    "Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    "Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3VZ...uteton&f=false

    5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

    6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

    7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been
    better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Love your enemies.
    Yup. And the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Because of murderers.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/...0/saint-origen
    Is this authorized, authoritative Church teaching? Did the authentic Church teachers ever teach anything resembling 'Christian Universalism?"
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    According to Scripture if you hate you are a murderer.
    I know. It's in the verse that I referenced.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    Ever hate anyone?
    No. You?
    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    BTW...

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    'BTW,' what?
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    The wages/ration of sin is death. Not endless death. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & Love Omnipotent Crucified shall be ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15:28). End of the story.

    Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation. Ooops.
    All well and good, assuming that there is only one 'death' in Sacred Scripture. And there's literally, a 'second death,' though.

    'Ooops,' indeed.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryN View Post
    They're not (present tense). They shall be, just as any other person who was unrighteous became righteous. In Christ. 1 Cor.6:9-11; 15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; etc
    So you think that they will believe in Christ, after they die? Even though Christ Himself said Luke 16:31 KJV? I don't think so.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Welcome to God's Consignment Shop

    Do you know what our God has done?

    He has "consigned" all mankind to disobedience!

    Why would our God do such a thing? Why, why, why?

    Yes Pas means the radical all. All mankind is in the Shop of all shops.

    The good news=

    The Pas consigned to disobedience are rescued.

    Your Father has seen fit to bring you Home!

    He has consigned all/pas mankind to disobedience so that might have mercy upon all/pas mankind.

    "For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all."

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/roma...2-compare.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    YES. I am BETTER THAN HITLER.
    seems obvious to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    seems obvious to me
    Nope. Halfwit 'Christian Universalists' be like, 'You're no better than mass murdering monsters in God's eyes.'
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLinen View Post
    Dear Menno: All humanity is indeed NOT the elect! And, the vast segments of them know not God at all: YET!

    All humanity, however, has been made by God, for God, & whose final destiny is God! "He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of the all. Remember that powerful koine ta panta?

    "God is [the] Saviour of all mankind>>>>>>>>>

    ESPECIALLY

    those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."


    “Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God's love encompasses us completely. ... He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken.” ― Dieter F. Uchtdorf-
    Whoever Dieter is, he completely leaves out God's justice. A loving God will not turn His back on justice. You promote an unjust god who ignores sin and lawbreaking. There is no creator God in the Bible who ignores injustice because He loves lawbreakers.
    The God of Creation is a just judge. He condemns wickedness and embraces Jesus holiness. Those whom God has placed in Christ will be saved. Those whom God has left in their sin will be condemned.
    FL, you will stand before God. Will you justly be condemned? If not, what is your defense before the Holy Judge?

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