REPORT: Judge Rightly

red77 · Feb 20, 2008

PastorKevin said:
How sad that you are willingly choosing the smoking over the non-smoking section of eternity.

If being part of some vengeful 'book throwing' club and 'rejoicing in the justice' of seeing others suffer is the "non smoking section"....

then pass the Benson and Hedges.....

:rain:

Poly · Feb 20, 2008

red77 said:
Seeing as God doesn't want anyone to perish i would have thought this would include Hilary Clinton...

It does. But she doesn't believe or care that she will one day perish since she's chosen to serve the god of this world and refused the salvation of the One who has offered to keep her from perishing.

red77 said:
Strikes me that this is purely to do with a strong dislike of the woman because her politics differ from yours.....

You're almost correct except strong dislike is too nice. I absolutely detest her with every fiber of my being. Everytime I see her face I anticipate her vengeance all the more. Her politics differ from God and since I agree with God's politics then of course hers differ from mine.

red77 said:
If being part of some vengeful 'book throwing' club and 'rejoicing in the justice' of seeing others suffer is the "non smoking section"....

then pass the Benson and Hedges.....

:rain:

People who love the Lord want righteousness and justice. They long for it. They anticipate it.

Romans 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

And knowing that justice will one day happen for all is something that brings a Christian great comfort.

Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

Would I rather see Hillary Clinton humble herself before the Lord and repent for all the evil she's done? Absolutely!! But I seriously doubt that will ever happen. And if it doesn't I will rejoice when vengeance is poured upon her head as well as all others who have dragged the name of a holy, good, and righteous God through the mud. It will be a great day when Christ "grinds them to powder".

elected4ever · Feb 20, 2008

What is the purpose of judging when it comes to a believer judging? Is it for the purpose of condemning others? Jesus said, "I come not to condemn." Why did Jesus say those words? Is it not that the world has already been judged? Has not the world been judged guilty before God? It is not our judgment that condemns the world but God's. We are to inform the world of not an impending judgment but of the judgment that all ready exist. It is this existing judgment that man deny.

There is not one act of sin that will send a person to hell. Men go to hell because he has been condemned all ready to death. How many times does a person have to die to be dead? After a person is dead, what more can you do? How many times can a person be executed? Homosexuality, murder, rape, and all manner of lawlessness are but symptoms of the death that man has already experienced. Requiring a dead person to act as though he were alive does nothing to elevate his dead condition. The law proves that. Even when the law is codified into the law of the land. Israel proved that.

Judgment is for our benefit not the worlds. We have not the mind of Christ for the world's benefit but for ours. Rightly judging does not require that we make the world into our image but that we conform our actions into the will of God. It is not necessary for us to learn the spiritual things of God because we have the righteous divine spirit of God alive within us. We are of the spirit and not of the flesh and in fact the flesh remains dead to God. So if you live by the flesh you remain dead to God and it is still under the death penalty of the righteous judgment of God.

We who are spiritual teach our flesh according to our true righteous nature, not law. That is the war that we fight. If we fight this fight according to law then the righteousness that we thought the law brings to us in fact becomes our death because the law condemns and brings forth our death because of the weakness of the flesh.

Prolifeguyswife · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
What is the purpose of judging when it comes to a believer judging? Is it for the purpose of condemning others? Jesus said, "I come not to condemn." Why did Jesus say those words? Is it not that the world has already been judged? Has not the world been judged guilty before God? It is not our judgment that condemns the world but God's. We are to inform the world of not an impending judgment but of the judgment that all ready exist. It is this existing judgment that man deny.

I want the scripture reference for "I come not to condemn."

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude. - from Bob Enyart's Nicer Than God.

elected4ever said:
Judgment is for our benefit not the worlds.
.

How will the world know that they need Jesus if they are not told the truth about their sin? I, personally, know of tons of people who have come to Jesus because they were openly rebuked.

elected4ever · Feb 20, 2008

Prolifeguyswife said:
I want the scripture reference for "I come not to condemn."

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Prolifeguyswife said:
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude. - from Bob Enyart's Nicer Than God.

Dead people are offended by righteousness. Jesus was born righteous by the seed of God. Righteousness is always an affront to unrighteousness. People hate Jesus and us without cause. We don't have to do anything but be the righteousness of God to be hated by man. It is part of our heritage as children of God. We don't have to work at being hated. Condemning the condemned does nothing but boost the ego of the carnal Christian. Makes him feel important to his pears.

Prolifeguyswife said:
How will the world know that they need Jesus if they are not told the truth about their sin? I, personally, know of tons of people who have come to Jesus because they were openly rebuked.

People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.

red77 · Feb 20, 2008

Poly said:
It does. But she doesn't believe or care that she will one day perish since she's chosen to serve the god of this world and refused the salvation of the One who has offered to keep her from perishing.

How do you know? I'm sure she realises her own mortality as much as you or I, this still seems to be a case of political differences which is not relevant to a belief in God...

You're almost correct except strong dislike is too nice. I absolutely detest her with every fiber of my being. Everytime I see her face I anticipate her vengeance all the more. Her politics differ from God and since I agree with God's politics then of course hers differ from mine.

Again, politics, how can you agree with God on politics when there is no scripture that encourages people to hate their 'opponents' with such a veracity as to wish to be part of their judgement before they've even died? If 'everytime you see her face you anticipate her vengeance all the more' then you're really just saying you hate the woman as far as I can see....and all over poltical difference which as human beings is a pretty common phenomenon, do you anticipate doing the same to all of those who disagree with you on political matters?

People who love the Lord want righteousness and justice. They long for it. They anticipate it.

Romans 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

And knowing that justice will one day happen for all is something that brings a Christian great comfort.

Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

Would I rather see Hillary Clinton humble herself before the Lord and repent for all the evil she's done? Absolutely!! But I seriously doubt that will ever happen. And if it doesn't I will rejoice when vengeance is poured upon her head as well as all others who have dragged the name of a holy, good, and righteous God through the mud. It will be a great day when Christ "grinds them to powder".

But, if you seriously want to see this woman 'humble and repent' then why aren't you praying for that to happen as oppose to praying to be part of a group who 'throws the book at her'? Because you "doubt it will ever happen"? Is that really a good enough reason?

MaryContrary · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.

Yes, they do and no, they don't. People lie to themselves and convince themselves what they're doing is right all the time. It's exceedingly rare for a person to do something they know full well is wrong without first convincing themselves that it is, in fact, "right" or that they at least have no control over their own behavior. The only thing that has a chance of defeating self-deception is another person pointing out that what they're doing is wrong.

Prolifeguyswife · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I thought that might be what you were referring to. God is saying that He sent his Son to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus wasn't sent to condemn the world to death, but to bring salvation.

But Jesus also said of Himself, ""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NASB)

elected4ever said:
people are offended by righteousness. Jesus was born righteous by the seed of God. Righteousness is always an affront to unrighteousness. People hate Jesus and us without cause. We don't have to do anything but be the righteousness of God to be hated by man. It is part of our heritage as children of God. We don't have to work at being hated. Condemning the condemned does nothing but boost the ego of the carnal Christian. Makes him feel important to his pears.

People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.

I disagree with almost everything in the above statement. First, our "heritage" is to judge rightly. Jesus said, Luk 12:57 ¶ "Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"

1Cr 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

You can't expect a non-Christian to know what is righteous. If you don't tell someone floundering in sin that what they are doing is wrong, they may never know. They first need to realize the truth of Romans 3:23, then repent for their actions. Why would they repent if they don't think they're doing anything wrong?
In Romans 12:9, where we are told to abhor what is evil. How can we abhor what is evil if we don't first judge what it is?

Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). [URL="www.kgov.com"]Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.[/URL]* From kgov.com by Bob Enyart

Clete · Feb 20, 2008

red77 said:
But, if you seriously want to see this woman 'humble and repent' then why aren't you praying for that to happen as oppose to praying to be part of a group who 'throws the book at her'? Because you "doubt it will ever happen"? Is that really a good enough reason?

This demonstrates your lack of Biblical understanding.

Throwing the book (i.e. the law) at her is precisely the right thing to do if you want for her to repent. Conviction of sin is always the precursor to repentance. She cannot get saved until she understands that she is lost.

Read Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and elsewhere.

red77 · Feb 20, 2008

Clete said:
This demonstrates your lack of Biblical understanding.

Throwing the book (i.e. the law) at her is precisely the right thing to do if you want for her to repent. Conviction of sin is always the precursor to repentance. She cannot get saved until she understands that she is lost.

Read Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and elsewhere.

Um, have you actually read the last coupla pages of this thread? I suggest you do before saying as much here.......!

elected4ever · Feb 20, 2008

Prolifeguyswife said:
I thought that might be what you were referring to. God is saying that He sent his Son to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus wasn't sent to condemn the world to death, but to bring salvation.

How could Jesus be saved through the sacrifice of himself?

Prolifeguyswife said:
But Jesus also said of Himself, ""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NASB)

Do you expect any thing different than devision between the righteous and unrighteous? It is the difference between the living and the dead.

Prolifeguyswife said:
I disagree with almost everything in the above statement. First, our "heritage" is to judge rightly. Jesus said, Luk 12:57 ¶ "Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"

Every man does that whether living or dead. Every man judges what he thinks is right. The difference is that the unrighteous judges by what he thinks is right according to his unrighteousness he still thinks it is right judgment. You have to be made righteous to have righteous judgment.

1Cr 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

Prolifeguyswife said:
You can't expect a non-Christian to know what is righteous. If you don't tell someone floundering in sin that what they are doing is wrong, they may never know. They first need to realize the truth of Romans 3:23, then repent for their actions. Why would they repent if they don't think they're doing anything wrong?
In Romans 12:9, where we are told to abhor what is evil. How can we abhor what is evil if we don't first judge what it is?

If you are righteous as Jesus is righteous you don't have to be told. You know, You have the mind of Christ. You are alive from the dead.

Prolifeguyswife said:
Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). [URL="www.kgov.com"]Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.[/URL]* From kgov.com by Bob Enyart

The whole world stands guilty before God and yes the stone that has been rejected in favor of law is grinding men into a fine powder. That is because man had rather have law than liberty. Men love death more than life. If you live by the law you have departed from faith. Where is your judgment? In the law or in liberty? Have you been set free from the law or are you still in bondage to the law?

Prolifeguyswife · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
How could Jesus be saved through the sacrifice of himself?

I mis-typed (obviously). I meant to type that the world could be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus.

elected4ever said:
Every man does that whether living or dead. Every man judges what he thinks is right. The difference is that the unrighteous judges by what he thinks is right according to his unrighteousness he still thinks it is right judgment. You have to be made righteous to have righteous judgment.

I don't think that is a response to what I wrote. My point is that we, as Christians, having righteous judgment, have a responsibility to judge others - rightly.
Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than hidden love.

Pro 28:23 He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

Here is a clear example of a Christian rebuking a non-believer:

Luke3:19&20 19 But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and all the other evil things he had done, 20 Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison.

Clete · Feb 20, 2008

red77 said:
Um, have you actually read the last coupla pages of this thread? I suggest you do before saying as much here.......!

What a brilliant rebuttal!

elected4ever · Feb 20, 2008

Prolifeguyswife said:
Prolifeguyswife said:

I mis-typed (obviously). I meant to type that the world could be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Click to expand...

OK:thumb:

Prolifeguyswife said:

I don't think that is a response to what I wrote. My point is that we, as Christians, having righteous judgment, have a responsibility to judge others - rightly.

Click to expand...

What law are you going to apply to judge rightly? I have been very critical of my government because it operates lawlessly according to its own law. Absolutely no one is subject to the law of Moses anymore but we are subject to the laws of the society in which we live. There is no law applicable but the law of faith for us. We believe God or we don't. It is incumbent upon us as children of God to hold ourselves accountable to one another but not to the world. What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness. We are in the world but not of the world.

It is nonsense to think that the dead can live like the living. Why are you requiring that of them. It is imposable for them to do. We should use whatever influence we have to change unrighteous law I agree but it is not deeds that send people to hell. People go to hell because they are dead no matter their moral activities.

Prolifeguyswife · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
Absolutely no one is subject to the law of Moses anymore but we are subject to the laws of the society in which we live. There is no law applicable but the law of faith for us.

That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law - It's the ritualistic Levitical law that doesn't apply to our society - that is, men cut their hair and wear garments of mixed fabrics today, etc. The Mosaic law is part of our testimony - why do we believe that adultery, murder, thievery, etc. are wrong, if we don't have Biblical guidelines to follow.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

The issue at hand is that we have a responsibility to judge and rebuke others. If I see someone about to harm someone else, I would judge that harming another human is wrong, then rebuke the person about to harm another.

A couple living together before they are married will do well with a Christian neighbor who invites them to church, smiling with a "God loves you" thrown in for good measure. But what if the Pastor never preaches about sin? What if they are not told that what they are doing (any sin would be an example) is wrong?

Why would those people ever accept Christ? Who needs a Savior if you don't believe you've done anything wrong? Why would you need grace if you don't think you've sinned?

Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," is a KEY part of salvation. If we do not rebuke others, Christian or non-Christian, they can never grasp the saving message of God's grace.

Clete · Feb 20, 2008

e4e,

The unbeliever will be judged by the law.

Not the Mosaic Law per se, but the law nevertheless.

Adultery, for example, was wrong before the law said "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
The same is true of murder, stealing, blasphemy, etc. That's why those things made it into the Ten Commandments and then later into the Mosaic Law. It wasn't that God just made some rules up and called it the Mosaic Law, they are based on the very person and character of God Himself and it is therefore the standard by which all will be judged.

You are also wrong about why people go to Hell. Paul explicitly states that without the law, sin is dead and that before the law came he was alive but when the law came sin revived within him and he died. There is no condemnation apart from sin and there is no sin apart from the law (whether it be written on stone or on a person's heart). Thus people go to Hell because of their own sin, not because they were born into some sinful condition that they have no control over.

Resting in Him,
Clete

elected4ever · Feb 20, 2008

Prolifeguyswife said:
That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law

Nothing more need be said. If that is what you believe you are yet dead to God. You have no right to claim God's grace as extending to you for salvation. Why? Because you have departed from the grace that has been extended to you. If you live by the law then you are obligated to the whole law. Not just the parts you like. You are making a mockery of Christ completed work on your behalf. What punishment are you worthy of for treading under foot the Son of God? You are a dead person who talks the talk but lives like the dead you condemn.:execute:

Clete · Feb 20, 2008

Prolifeguyswife said:
That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law - It's the ritualistic Levitical law that doesn't apply to our society - that is, men cut their hair and wear garments of mixed fabrics today, etc. The Mosaic law is part of our testimony - why do we believe that adultery, murder, thievery, etc. are wrong, if we don't have Biblical guidelines to follow.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

The issue at hand is that we have a responsibility to judge and rebuke others. If I see someone about to harm someone else, I would judge that harming another human is wrong, then rebuke the person about to harm another.

A couple living together before they are married will do well with a Christian neighbor who invites them to church, smiling with a "God loves you" thrown in for good measure. But what if the Pastor never preaches about sin? What if they are not told that what they are doing (any sin would be an example) is wrong?

Why would those people ever accept Christ? Who needs a Savior if you don't believe you've done anything wrong? Why would you need grace if you don't think you've sinned?

Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," is a KEY part of salvation. If we do not rebuke others, Christian or non-Christian, they can never grasp the saving message of God's grace.

Jesus repeatedly taught people to obey the Mosaic Law - all of it - including the rituals, that much is true. But, because of the Dispensation of Grace, which was given to Paul (i.e. it wasn't taught before Paul), we are NOT to follow the Mosaic Law in any respect. The law is for the unbeliever now, not us. If you place yourself under the law (not just for salvation sake but for any reason) Christ will profit you nothing.

You trust Christ for your salvation, why would you rely on the law for your daily walk? Does Paul not tell us explicitly that as we began we are also to continue?

Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

Do you see? AS we received Christ, so walk! How did we receive Christ? BY FAITH! Therefore, walk by faith not by the law, for faith does not work by law for then our reward would no longer be of grace but of debt because the law is not of faith but of the flesh, but faith works by love.

Read through Galatians 3 and see the following verses...

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There are, of course, many more but that will do for now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. E4e is a mouth breathing idiot. Please ignore him. The one or two points he gets right, only serve to lend credence to his stupidity, which makes up the bulk of everything he says. He isn't worth your time and effort.

Mystery · Feb 20, 2008

Clete said:
It wasn't that God just made some rules up and called it the Mosaic Law

Sure He did.

Prolifeguyswife · Feb 20, 2008

elected4ever said:
Nothing more need be said. If that is what you believe you are yet dead to God. You have no right to claim God's grace as extending to you for salvation. Why? Because you have departed from the grace that has been extended to you. If you live by the law then you are obligated to the whole law. Not just the parts you like. You are making a mockery of Christ completed work on your behalf. What punishment are you worthy of for treading under foot the Son of God? You are a dead person who talks the talk but lives like the dead you condemn.:execute:

Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted?

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.

REPORT: Judge Rightly

New member

Blessed beyond measure

New member

New member

New member

New member

New member

New member

Truth Smacker

New member

New member

New member

Truth Smacker

New member

New member

Truth Smacker

New member

Truth Smacker

New member

New member