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Thread: The Gospel Verses Predestination

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    The Gospel Verses Predestination

    Predestination is a false Gospel or another Gospel, Galatians 1:6-10.

    The true Gospel is about how Jesus Christ justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and how by his mighty works he has reconciled a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If we have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

    Adam by his own free will chose to sin against God. God actually created a man that could rebel against him, if he chose to do so. All of the angels in heaven were also created with a free will. Satan was kicked out of heaven because by his own free will he chose to rebel against God.

    I don't know why some want to believe that Adam lost his free will in the fall. Adam did not lose his free will, what he lost was his relationship with God, not his free will. Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. God requested that they should bring him an offering. Cain by his own free will brought God some vegetables out of his garden, Genesis 4:3. While Abel brought a firstlings of his flock, Geneses 4:4. Which pointed to Christ. God was pleased with Abel's offering, but not Cain's, Genesis 4:5. Here we have the two sons of Adam and Eve by their own free will trying to please God with their offerings.

    If Adam lost his free will would not his own flesh and blood also loose their free will also? In the following scriptures we learn that Cain by his own free will murders his brother Abel, Genesis 4:8. Now did God make Cain murder his brother? I hardly think so, but many believe that is what happened.

    God never did and never will create a robot. Why? simply because robots don't honor or glorify him. God created a man that has the ability to sin against him, or to love and obey him. Either way God is glorified in the crown of his creation. Everyone will be judged by him to see if they have done good or evil, 2 Corinthians 5:10. We are all individual responsible for our actions. You are not going to be able to blame God for your rejection of his Son Jesus Christ in the judgment.

    The Gospel brings honor and glory to God and his Son Jesus Christ, while the doctrine of predestination makes him a villain and makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and in doing so has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

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    Lightbulb Robert Pate on Free Will and Predestination

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    I don't know why some want to believe that Adam lost his free will in the fall.
    Nor do I, Robert.

    Of course, one must define what they mean when they use "free will", as it is a phrase given to many opinions.

    From the full counsel of Scripture, free will means the ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.

    What Adam lost in the garden during his probationary period was the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. His failure to obey subsequently plunged all his progeny into a dire state of affairs wherein all, being born sinners, have only the ability to sin more or sin less. They remain in this moral state if and until God first acts, via the ordinary means of the promiscuous preaching of the Good News, to quicken them (Eze. 36:26). At that instant the quickened (regenerated) person will be wholly inclined—per their own free will—to believe and will not not believe.

    Lest we become lazy in our evangelistic zeal, robbing God of His glory, and denying even the common blessings upon all in a place, country, etc. via these zealous activities of the church militant, it is fortunate we do not know exactly who will be quickened by God. Nevertheless, what we do know and Scripture teaches us most assuredly, is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and never lost to Him (Romans 10:13; John 3:36).

    Your post overlooks the plain fact that predestination is spoken about within Scripture. Hence it cannot be a "false gospel". Rather what you have written claiming that some believe this or that is really the false gospel at hand.

    Rather than deal with this, you have adopted a view of fatalism, ignoring God's own counsel for exactly who—a great multitude no man can number, Rev. 7:9—God has predestined unto life (in Christ), leaving the remainder in Adam. If one rejects the federal headship of Adam, your view is but one of the many errors that arise.

    If there are no impacts upon those that come from the loins of the first man, one wonders why Adam was even put on probation in the Garden. The curse rendered upon Adam and his progeny is not merely temporal pains (work, toil, corruption of creation, pain, suffering, etc.). Indeed, the curse includes the moral aspect of the will of man, now given over to only sinning more or sinning less. Hence, our need for a Redeemer, all according to God's own sovereign and wise counsel.

    Your view is as if there is no need for Adam, for apparently each person is his own little "Adam" who can sin or not sin, in possession of abilities to contribute to his or her own eternal destiny, making God a debtor. Naturally this contradicts covenantalism and the moral parallels between the First and Second Adam Paul speak of in Romans 5:12-18.

    In summary, you adopt a caricature, a straw man, of the view of those with whom you are in disagreement. As my opening sentence indicates, I know of no person that actually believes what you claim "some" actually believe. I am confident you had "Calvinists" in mind. Would that you would actually seek out a bona fide Calvinist and ask your questions, then interact substantively with the responses you will no doubt be given. Whether you find yourself in agreement or not afterwards does not matter. But at a minimum you will then be able to accurately represent those with whom you are caviling about.

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; July 22nd, 2018 at 02:12 PM. Reason: grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Nor do I, Robert.

    Of course, one must define what they mean when they use "free will", as it is a phrase given to many opinions.

    From the full counsel of Scripture, free will means the ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.

    What Adam lost in the garden during his probationary period was the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. His failure to obey subsequently plunged all his progeny into a dire state of affairs wherein all, being born sinners, have only the ability to sin more or sin less. They remain in this moral state if and until God first acts, via the ordinary means of the promiscuous preaching of the Good News, to quicken them (Eze. 36:26). At that instant the quickened (regenerated) person will be wholly inclined—per their own free will—to believe and will not not believe.

    Lest we become lazy in our evangelistic zeal, robbing God of His glory, and denying even the common blessings upon all in a place, country, etc. via these zealous activities of the church militant, it is fortunate we do not know exactly who will be quickened by God. Nevertheless, what we do know and Scripture teaches us most assuredly, is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and never lost to Him (Romans 10:13; John 3:36).

    Your post overlooks the plain fact that predestination is spoken about within Scripture. Hence it cannot be a "false gospel". Rather what you have written claiming that some believe this or that is really the false gospel at hand.

    Rather than deal with this, you have adopted a view of fatalism, ignoring God's own counsel for exactly who—a great multitude no man can number, Rev. 7:9—God has predestined unto life (in Christ), leaving the remainder in Adam. If one rejects the federal headship of Adam, your view is but one of the many errors that arise.

    If there are no impacts upon those that come from the loins of the first man, one wonders why Adam was even put on probation in the Garden. The curse rendered upon Adam and his progeny is not merely temporal pains (work, toil, corruption of creation, pain, suffering, etc.). Indeed, the curse includes the moral aspect of the will of man, now given over to only sinning more or sinning less. Hence, our need for a Redeemer, all according to God's own sovereign and wise counsel.

    Your view is as if there is no need for Adam, for apparently each person is his own little "Adam" who can sin or not sin, in possession of abilities to contribute to his or her own eternal destiny, making God a debtor. Naturally this contradicts covenantalism and the moral parallels between the First and Second Adam Paul speak of in Romans 5:12-18.

    In summary, you adopt a caricature, a straw man, of the view of those with whom you are in disagreement. As my opening sentence indicates, I know of no person that actually believes what you claim "some" actually believe. I am confident you had "Calvinists" in mind. Would that you would actually seek out a bona fide Calvinist and ask your questions, then interact substantively with the responses you will no doubt be given. Whether you find yourself in agreement or not afterwards does not matter. But at a minimum you will then be able to accurately represent those with whom you are caviling about.

    AMR
    The word predestination only appears in the New Testament 4 times and is not to be found in the Old Testament at all. In the 4 times that it appears, it is not connected with any one being predestinated to eternal life.

    This is how it is used,

    "Predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son" Romans 8:29

    "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" Romans 8:30.

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children" Ephesians 1:5.

    "Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all thing" Ephesians 1:11.


    That's it. There is no scripture about being predestinated to eternal life. On the other hand the words like "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

    You didn't address the free will of Adams children, Cain and Abel, especially Cain who by his own free will slew his brother Abel. God said to Cain, "What have YOU done?"The murder of Abel by Cain was not predestinated. God does not predestinate evil.

    The Gospel of reconciliation was not addressed either. You have no answer for 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. These are very important scriptures for which you have no real answers. You have done what you usually do, make a smoke screen.

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    Predestination
    God the Father created Jesus first in the image of the righteousness of God. Gods foreknowledge of that righteousness is what God has been after sense the beginning. And Jesus was the only one that was ever predestined. And all those who are sanctified by Jesus will come with Him.

    Col 1:15
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    (NKJ)

    Rom 8:28-33
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
    32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
    33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
    (NKJ)

    Eph 1:3-6
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
    (NKJ)

    1 Pet 1:2
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
    (NKJ)

    1 Pet 1:2
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
    (NKJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    Predestination
    God the Father created Jesus first in the image of the righteousness of God. Gods foreknowledge of that righteousness is what God has been after sense the beginning. And Jesus was the only one that was ever predestined. And all those who are sanctified by Jesus will come with Him.

    Col 1:15
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    (NKJ)

    Rom 8:28-33
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
    32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
    33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
    (NKJ)

    Eph 1:3-6
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
    (NKJ)

    1 Pet 1:2
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
    (NKJ)

    1 Pet 1:2
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
    (NKJ)
    All good scripture, but none of it supports the doctrine of predestination.

    Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. The eternal Jesus came into the world, clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us. By his righteous sinless life and his atonement on the cross he perfected our humanity and took it back to heaven. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

    Its over, its finished. Jesus in our name and on our behalf has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. No one needs to be predestinate, simply because everyone has ALREADY been reconciled unto God by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

    This is why salvation is by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Predestination is a false Gospel or another Gospel, Galatians 1:6-10.

    The true Gospel is about how Jesus Christ justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and how by his mighty works he has reconciled a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If we have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, then why would anyone need to be predestinated?

    Adam by his own free will chose to sin against God. God actually created a man that could rebel against him, if he chose to do so. All of the angels in heaven were also created with a free will. Satan was kicked out of heaven because by his own free will he chose to rebel against God.

    I don't know why some want to believe that Adam lost his free will in the fall. Adam did not lose his free will, what he lost was his relationship with God, not his free will. Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. God requested that they should bring him an offering. Cain by his own free will brought God some vegetables out of his garden, Genesis 4:3. While Abel brought a firstlings of his flock, Geneses 4:4. Which pointed to Christ. God was pleased with Abel's offering, but not Cain's, Genesis 4:5. Here we have the two sons of Adam and Eve by their own free will trying to please God with their offerings.

    If Adam lost his free will would not his own flesh and blood also loose their free will also? In the following scriptures we learn that Cain by his own free will murders his brother Abel, Genesis 4:8. Now did God make Cain murder his brother? I hardly think so, but many believe that is what happened.

    God never did and never will create a robot. Why? simply because robots don't honor or glorify him. God created a man that has the ability to sin against him, or to love and obey him. Either way God is glorified in the crown of his creation. Everyone will be judged by him to see if they have done good or evil, 2 Corinthians 5:10. We are all individual responsible for our actions. You are not going to be able to blame God for your rejection of his Son Jesus Christ in the judgment.

    The Gospel brings honor and glory to God and his Son Jesus Christ, while the doctrine of predestination makes him a villain and makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and in doing so has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
    You teach that sinners Christ died for still perish. Thats no Gospel of Christ !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    squeaky

    And Jesus was the only one that was ever predestined.
    False statement nowhere in scripture. In fact Paul wrote that some had been predestined. Rom 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You teach that sinners Christ died for still perish. Thats no Gospel of Christ !
    Yep! And you are one of them. You must trust and rely upon Christ for your salvation or you will perish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Yep! And you are one of them. You must trust and rely upon Christ for your salvation or you will perish.
    You deny the saving death of Christ !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You deny the saving death of Christ !

    Jesus has ALREADY reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. So that now, salvation is by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8.

    You have a problem with believing the scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Jesus has ALREADY reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. So that now, salvation is by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8.

    You have a problem with believing the scriptures.
    You teach that sinners Christ died for perish in their sins, which denies the saving efficacy of His Blood.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You teach that sinners Christ died for perish in their sins, which denies the saving efficacy of His Blood.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    No, I teach that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

    Also that, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

    The whole Bible is accurate and true. You have been beguiled by the devil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    No, I teach that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

    Also that, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

    The whole Bible is accurate and true. You have been beguiled by the devil.
    Since you teach that sinners Christ tasted death for are still lost, you dont preach the Gospel !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Since you teach that sinners Christ tasted death for are still lost, you dont preach the Gospel !

    The FACT remains. There is no scripture that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell.

    If this were a true doctrine the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

    They that Christ tasted death for must receive God's great free gift of salvation, or they like you will perish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post

    You didn't address the free will of Adams children, Cain and Abel, especially Cain who by his own free will slew his brother Abel. God said to Cain, "What have YOU done?"The murder of Abel by Cain was not predestinated. God does not predestinate evil.

    The Gospel of reconciliation was not addressed either. You have no answer for 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. These are very important scriptures for which you have no real answers. You have done what you usually do, make a smoke screen.
    Rather than seeking more heavy-lifting from me, why not interact with what I actually posted, Robert?

    Moving the goal posts does not further the discussion.

    Perhaps you (Robert!) can start with some notions you have about what "free will" actually means. For now, I am not interested in what others have to say. Only you. So try to provide an answer all on your own rather than awaiting to tee off what others have to say.

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; July 23rd, 2018 at 01:38 PM. Reason: grammar
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