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Thread: The Exodus (Did it happen)

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    OK, i listen to all 8 parts and first thses guys Bob Enyart and Fred Williams are bias. i beleive Catholic. And as I said before if you move the the Exodus back to th 15 century BCE, you have a Biblical problem. Also I "think" Rameses 11 was king during Exodus. Bob and Fred go on and on about Ipuwer, the Ipuwer manuscript proves to be to old plus it describes Asiatics are arriving in Egypt rather than leaving? Ipuwer never mention Israelites or Hebrew, he does not name Pharoh. And this;
    Gardiner agrees with Velikovsky’s chronology in the sense that the Ipuwer papyrus text tells us about both a civil war and of an Asiatic occupation of the Delta. The two periods in which this might be possible are the dark age that separated the sixth from the eleventh dynasty, and the other is the Hyksos period. Gardiner inclines towards the theory of the invasion of Hyksos to explain the events in which this papyrus alludes.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee1 View Post
    Also Manetho describe an expulsion Hyksos Semities and lepers with happen centuries before supposely Exodus, and Manetho never mention the word israelite or Jew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee1 View Post
    OK, i listen to all 8 parts and first thses guys Bob Enyart and Fred Williams are bias. i beleive Catholic. And as I said before if you move the the Exodus back to th 15 century BCE, you have a Biblical problem. Also I "think" Rameses 11 was king during Exodus. Bob and Fred go on and on about Ipuwer, the Ipuwer manuscript proves to be to old plus it describes Asiatics are arriving in Egypt rather than leaving? Ipuwer never mention Israelites or Hebrew, he does not name Pharoh. And this;
    Gardiner agrees with Velikovsky’s chronology in the sense that the Ipuwer papyrus text tells us about both a civil war and of an Asiatic occupation of the Delta. The two periods in which this might be possible are the dark age that separated the sixth from the eleventh dynasty, and the other is the Hyksos period. Gardiner inclines towards the theory of the invasion of Hyksos to explain the events in which this papyrus alludes.
    So, if I'm getting the gist of your argument right, it's basicallly this:

    "The Exodus didn't happen in such and such century, therefore it couldn't have happened at all."

    Is that about right?

    Consider this:

    Assume the Bible (and therefore God) is true, and every man (such as the scholars who deny the Exodus happened in whatever century) is a liar (or at least a fool).

    Does the evidence presented line up with what the Bible says? (Forget the so-called scholars for a moment.)

    If so, then the scholars are wrong, and the Exodus did happen in the century it happened in, and not in the one they say it that it did not happen in.

    They're technically correct that it didn't happen in the century they examine, but then to say that it didn't happen at all because it didn't happen in the century they're examining? Talk about faulty logic...

    If it happened two centuries (iirc) prior to when they say it didn't happen, then OF COURSE it didn't happen when they say it didn't happen, because it happened two centuries before the century they say it didn't happen in. Duh.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So, if I'm getting the gist of your argument right, it's basicallly this:

    "The Exodus didn't happen in such and such century, therefore it couldn't have happened at all."

    Is that about right?

    Consider this:

    Assume the Bible (and therefore God) is true, and every man (such as the scholars who deny the Exodus happened in whatever century) is a liar (or at least a fool).

    Does the evidence presented line up with what the Bible says? (Forget the so-called scholars for a moment.)

    If so, then the scholars are wrong, and the Exodus did happen in the century it happened in, and not in the one they say it that it did not happen in.

    They're technically correct that it didn't happen in the century they examine, but then to say that it didn't happen at all because it didn't happen in the century they're examining? Talk about faulty logic...

    If it happened two centuries (iirc) prior to when they say it didn't happen, then OF COURSE it didn't happen when they say it didn't happen, because it happened two centuries before the century they say it didn't happen in. Duh.
    I understand Christians and believers in 1 true God dilemma, if you move the Exodus to maybe when Egypt over took from the Hyksos in the 1600 BCE ,you may have something but if you do that then the Bible is wrong and we can't have that so what do you do. I personal believe that a large group of Israelites left Eygpt for Canaan. Once there they unite with a Canaanite clan and then they developed into a kingdom. Also another theory that they tried to put out there is that Israel was a kingdom in 1600 BCE. Hey, this is all news to me, I gave the Exodus as a given truth biblical and a factual. I am somewhat awed at all flak that is cause in the Bible. That is why I say anything man touch he alters in some way. If the Hebrew scholars would not ,in all of their infinite wisdom, tamper with God's word there would not have been any conflicts period, about anything printed in Bible. God don't make mistakes so the Jews have painted themselves in a corner and force to admit it never happen or the Bible is wrong! Either way they are fu*k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    ... The land of Canaan wouldn't support that many people back then.
    I'll be more precise: I've spoken to an archaeologist about this. One can estimate the number of people who lived in the land in the early Iron Age, based on the number of cities and settlements and their size. It comes nowhere near the number in the Biblical narrative.

    I personally don't view that as a big issue, though I know that for some this can upset their religious world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    I'll be more precise: I've spoken to an archaeologist about this. One can estimate the number of people who lived in the land in the early Iron Age, based on the number of cities and settlements and their size. It comes nowhere near the number in the Biblical narrative.

    I personally don't view that as a big issue, though I know that for some this can upset their religious world.
    To you and me probably means little,but if you are of Jewish faith, this is a disaster. The Jews have always pride in themselves about their heritage and lineage in fact it was what set them apart from other cultures. But if look at the bigger picture if the Exodus was exaggerated what else could also be off or untrue. All the question about stories in the Bible (creation, the flood) sounding similar to Ancient Sumer . The Hebrews have been exposed to it since their inception. Hebrews( Semitic) originated from Canaan who strongly held pagan beliefs, spend 400 years in Egypt, also a student of ancient Sumer philosophy, leave Egypt establish a kingdom then get enslaved by the Babylonians who are deeply steep in Ancient Near East philosophy return home write OT and say it all original and pre-ordain from God or should I say El, an ancient Canaanite word for one of their gods, also borrowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee1 View Post
    ...I am somewhat awed at all flak that is cause in the Bible. That is why I say anything man touch he alters in some way. If the Hebrew scholars would not ,in all of their infinite wisdom, tamper with God's word there would not have been any conflicts period, about anything printed in Bible. God don't make mistakes so the Jews have painted themselves in a corner and force to admit it never happen or the Bible is wrong! Either way they are fu*k.

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    The mistake was in thinking that the Bible is "God's word" in the first place. It is odd to hear you blame the "Jews" for this- without them you wouldn't have a Bible. And Christians accepted the "scriptures", as you know.

    Also- your use of the "F word" here is a no-no, even if you camouflage it. Expect to hear from the moderators when they wake up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee1 View Post
    To you and me probably means little,but if you are of Jewish faith, this is a disaster. The Jews have always pride in themselves about their heritage and lineage in fact it was what set them apart from other cultures. But if look at the bigger picture if the Exodus was exaggerated what else could also be off or untrue. All the question about stories in the Bible (creation, the flood) sounding similar to Ancient Sumer . The Hebrews have been exposed to it since their inception. Hebrews( Semitic) originated from Canaan who strongly held pagan beliefs, spend 400 years in Egypt, also a student of ancient Sumer philosophy, leave Egypt establish a kingdom then get enslaved by the Babylonians who are deeply steep in Ancient Near East philosophy return home write OT and say it all original and pre-ordain from God or should I say El, an ancient Canaanite word for one of their gods, also borrowed.

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    Calm down. This isn't a disaster- and if it was, it would be one for Christians as well ( remember " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching...". The Bible is our holy ancient written traditions, and it remains such even if the details aren't always accurate. It isn't a history book. And it never claims to be written by God, or to be "God's Word".

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfCaleb View Post
    Semantics. Yes Moses didnt come from the line of Judah and thus wasn't a 'Jew' in that sense.
    "Jew" is a biblical word used in the KJV.

    "Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, came up to Jerusalem to make war; and they besieged Ahaz but could not overcome him.

    Israel made war with the king of the Jews.

    Pekah was an Israelite, but not a Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    The mistake was in thinking that the Bible is "God's word" in the first place. It is odd to hear you blame the "Jews" for this- without them you wouldn't have a Bible. And Christians accepted the "scriptures", as you know.

    Also- your use of the "F word" here is a no-no, even if you camouflage it. Expect to hear from the moderators when they wake up.
    The bible is not God's word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Calm down. This isn't a disaster- and if it was, it would be one for Christians as well ( remember " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching...". The Bible is our holy ancient written traditions, and it remains such even if the details aren't always accurate. It isn't a history book. And it never claims to be written by God, or to be "God's Word".
    Ok I agree Christianity is not doomed but where do you start in fact let's me clear my head on something. How and why did the Israelites be in Egypt in such numbers. As slaves from what conquest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee1 View Post
    Ok I agree Christianity is not doomed but where do you start in fact let's me clear my head on something. How and why did the Israelites be in Egypt in such numbers. As slaves from what conquest?

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    Have you not read Genesis?

    Don't you remember the story of Joseph? How he brought his family to Egypt during the famine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    "Jew" is a biblical word used in the KJV.

    "Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, came up to Jerusalem to make war; and they besieged Ahaz but could not overcome him.

    Israel made war with the king of the Jews.

    Pekah was an Israelite, but not a Jew.
    This has nothing to do with my original point, so im going to ignore it.
    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Have you not read Genesis?

    Don't you remember the story of Joseph? How he brought his family to Egypt during the famine?
    Having read through his posts there's some irony here, as his lack of historical knowledge and his lack of familiarity with the Biblical account is glaring. Instead its been replaced with tendentious arguments and logical fallacys that have been proposed umpteen times by so called scholars and some theologians since the so called "Age of Enlightenment" -when rationale thought became the rage along with secularism and denial of God and the Bible- bent on disproving the Bible or persuasively trying to find alternative academic reasons for the origins of the Jews.

    Iv seen these sophomoric arguments before and frankly they're very easy to debunk academically as well as scripturally. But i get the impression he's not really looking answers but more a confirmation bias on the superficial debate points he's raising. None of which are new.
    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfCaleb View Post
    This has nothing to do with my original point, so im going to ignore it.
    Most people do.

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    I think I said on numerous occasions that I am a novice at best when it comes to religion. I read the Bible as a book from front to back, took me a little over a week.I have only the basics when it comes to Biblically events.I accepted that the Exodus was a fact from reading the Bible, researching Moses brought me back to the Exodus. Google Exodus and see what you find, more material that it did not happen than it did. Why are most religious scholars and secular archaeologists agree that the Exodus did not happen as described in the Bible and does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel? So far to date I have seen no grounds to confirm.

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