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Thread: The Left has become dangerously unhinged.

  1. #406
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The government has the right and the responsibility to build and maintain roads and other infrastructure. It does not have the right to care for people cradle to grave. It's not a right given to the government by God.
    Actually, you're wrong in just about every part. Our government, we the people, has the right to help the poor collectively. We're actually doing more than the people of Israel were obligated to do in their day. And you've yet to provide scriptural support for you ideas about God's limitations on government, while I've supplied scriptural support for government authority, which is the root of our laws.

    Because it is. It's redistribution of wealth. It's theft-by-receiving on the part of the person who receives it, and it's theft by taking on the part of the government.
    Except that it isn't theft. Theft is an unlawful taking of something from someone who has legal claim to it.

    Let me ask you this: If you buy something from me using your credit card, and instead of me charging you the predetermined amount, say, $5, I charge you $50 dollars, would that be theft? Was the original purchase price theft? or was it lawful?
    A store can charge anything you're willing to pay, provided you understand what you're paying. If a store tries to make a bargain with you and then attempts to change that bargain they have legal troubles ahead.

    Because it isn't. That's called "building good roads." Which the government is obligated to do.You shall prepare roads for yourself... - Deuteronomy 19:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV
    That's not God commanding all governments to build roads. It's a very specific situation involving sanctuary cities. Or do you also believe all governments should divide their land into 3rds and build sanctuary cities?

    Here's the thing. You can't compel charity, or it's not charity.
    Then there's no such thing, because God compels it and always has.

    There is nothing wrong with charity, ie, the willful giving from one person to another without expecting anything in return. But that's just it, the government stepping in and saying, "we're taking this money to give to the poor" is not charity, it's theft.
    It's neither. And the state takes up taxes at large then determines the best way to spend them in particular.

    If someone comes up to you and they are poor, you should help them. But it should not be forced.
    It's a commandment by the most inherently coercive force in the universe. Or do you think the idea that what you fail to do for the poor you fail to do for God is a suggestion of sorts. Do or don't do sort of thing, just a suggestion, no consequences attending?

    Paying taxes to fund the government is completely different than paying taxes to fund the poor. The former is good and just because God says for governments to provide infrastructure and to deal with matters of criminal justice, the latter is wicked because it's theft.
    No support for your idea in the latter, or for how you choose to see helping those who aren't in a position to provide for themselves.

    The government has the right and obligation to fund itself so that it can perform its two just functions given in the Bible, providing and maintaining infrastructure, and dealing with criminal justice (both foreign (military) and domestic (police and judiciary)).
    I know you believe that, but you won't demonstrate God limiting the operation of government like that. In fact, charity was built into the law.

    I have never said that all taxes are theft. Please stop bringing that straw man argument against me.
    In order, I didn't say you did and I never did. Way to dodge what I'm actually saying though.

    You'd just written that stealing was taking without legal right. My response is that the law cannot be "without legal right" so you lose at the outset. It's not stealing, can't be. It can be immoral and objectionable to your mind, but it can't rationally be considered theft.

    God says that anything higher than 10% tax is tyrannical.
    You keep saying that. I don't believe you have it right. Which is why I've repeatedly asked you for scriptural support for that. And you've yet to set it out.

    He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work.He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.” - 1 Samuel 8:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV
    And given what little government provided in return that seems fair and just. What isn't there is God calling more than that, without even touching upon the foundation of government providing a good bit more than border security and judgement, "wicked". Or in any sense forbidding a government from doing more. You just don't like taxes, don't like how they're spent, and you want a moral leg to stand on in opposition.

    No, it doesn't. God says that if a person does not work, he SHALL NOT EAT...Obviously, this doesn't include people who are unable to work.
    It's not obvious when you don't frame it that way. All you needed to do is substitute "refuses" for "does not." Because they aren't saying the same thing.

    To the extent the government raises and educates children, most parents relinquish that role.
    If a parent abandons their responsibility to anyone the sin and the fault are theirs. But sending a child to school isn't that, whether done privately or publicly.

    The government does not have the right to force someone to pay for another man’s education.
    Caesar has a right to lay taxes and spend on whatever he wants. Fortunately, in our government, we are Caesar. In that the state is expressing authority given to it by God.

    Is that all you could think of? Please, provide more examples of socialism so I can tell you why they're wrong.
    I gave you two major social programs doing a definable good and you've yet to do more than wave hands at them. What's the point in expanding a list you haven't really answered with rebuttal of any substantive sort? Saying interestates, a social program, isn't a social program doesn't make it so.

    Trying to suggest education is the province of the parent is in the sense you use it as mistaken as suggesting that because the health of a child is the parent's responsibility they should practice medicine on the child instead of seeing to it that the child has a doctor.

    "We the people" are not the government, no matter how many times you say it or try to enforce it in your government. A republic is just as wicked as a democracy. They're practically kissing cousins.
    Except a republic, our representative democracy, is a self-determining government where "we the people" is an apt description. The people elect representatives to hammer out our laws by that means, to speak for us with our voice. So no matter how you yell, "No!" the truth is plain and observable.

    Not Caeser. Government. See the verses I quoted from 1 Samuel above.
    Caesar was the government in that day and I've read and responded to Samuel as you used it. It doesn't say what you're saying. So if that's it you're making some of your charge up.

    That's because you're looking in the wrong place.
    That's evasion, not counter. And I set out a good bit of scripture in support. Set it out to be read.

    No idea why you added a number of other particular rebuttals from me without responding, but...thanks?

    And you even took the time to respond to it.
    Sure. When you divided a sentence in half so you could write "Duh" I think that speaks to something worth pointing out. I'd also note it if you starting randomly cursing, even though it wasn't substantive, because it's indicative.

    Also, putting a lot of different responses into a needlessly long post where you move in and out of different conversations makes it a royal pain to answer, as well as creating a needlessly long post. When you do that and someone goes into quote mode it doesn't distinguish between quotes aimed to one person or the other. So you need two windows or a lot of scrolling to get to the parts that are responsive.


    Just thought I'd point out that your formatting is atrocious.
    That's funny.

    I believe there's an option to "paste as plain text" on the TOL desktop site comment editor. You may want to start using that, because it's extremely hard to read with all that formatting.
    I always preview and it looks fine to me. Maybe it's your phone or something. Way to dodge all that scripture though.
    Last edited by Town Heretic; July 11th, 2018 at 12:31 PM.
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  3. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    As for the posts I haven't gotten to yet, I'll try to get to them today
    JR, if you think that welfare programs and safety nets for the poor are "theft" then what solution do you have for the myriad people who would be left starving and destitute because they have no family or friends to aid them or any meaningful means of support? What about the children of such people where no governmental aid is available? Charity wouldn't reach everybody by a long shot, even with such safety nets in place there's people who fall through them and are on the streets.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post


    Except that it isn't theft. Theft is an unlawful taking of something from someone who has legal claim to it.

    in the same manner, abortion isn't murder because a corrupt, immoral and evil legal system says so

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post

    Let's look at scripture together, beginning with authority.

    6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Romans 13:6-7

    13
    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For [COLOR=#000000][FONT=&]there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Romans 13:1
    Same Paul, same Bible. Yet here is Paul saying to stay away from the governments judicial systems and basically says the whole thing is unrighteous.

    1 Corinthians 6:1-7


    “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers! Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather [let yourselves] be cheated?”
    If any of my views seem to be strange or new to you, it is to be hoped that you will not close your mind to them, but will emulate the noble Bereans, and not only read and study the chapters would discuss, but will also search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so.

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You have to pay the piper, iow 'death and taxes,' why isn't taxing imports a good way to raise public revenue?
    Free trade benefits all! We can always impose taxes on sales, which go to the state, not the importer.
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I do mean dangerous. These out of control haters are fast becoming mobs who will stop at nothing to destroy this country. They are vulgar and proud of it. Where does this evil come from? Blame this on Trump, too, I suppose?

    The new tactic is a blatant war on anyone who is not a member of their mob. Danger is here.

    Watch the haters zoom in with their personal attacks.
    Make sure you are economically viable, and take your vitamins.
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    Free trade benefits all!
    Such a simple truth, so hard for some people to understand.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    JR, if you think that welfare programs and safety nets for the poor are "theft" then what solution do you have for the myriad people who would be left starving and destitute because they have no family or friends to aid them or any meaningful means of support? What about the children of such people where no governmental aid is available? Charity wouldn't reach everybody by a long shot, even with such safety nets in place there's people who fall through them and are on the streets.
    some of them legal and assisted state sanctioned suicide?
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Such a simple truth, so hard for some people to understand.
    It is like you are becoming my buddy!
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    CS Lewis

    “It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

    If any of my views seem to be strange or new to you, it is to be hoped that you will not close your mind to them, but will emulate the noble Bereans, and not only read and study the chapters would discuss, but will also search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    some of them legal and assisted state sanctioned suicide?
    Um, not really sure where you're going with that or how it addresses my post to JR?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  20. #417
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    Same Paul, same Bible. Yet here is Paul saying to stay away from the governments judicial systems and basically says the whole thing is unrighteous.

    1 Corinthians 6:1-7

    “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers! Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather [let yourselves] be cheated?”
    I think Paul is setting out how Christians should act if they are to imitate Christ fully. I don't see a contradiction in this, especially when you consider the tribunals he is referring to were pagan and the business conducted by heathens. Paul was keenly aware of how Christians behaving like the rest of the world around them would impact their witness.
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  21. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Um, not really sure where you're going with that or how it addresses my post to JR?
    I like JR and respect him. My post goes to the fact that some of these persons might find life intolerable and would like a way out.. It is purely pragmatic. Not all have much to live for and barely making it past fifty with no family, just maybe opting out is a viable option.

    Should wanting to opt out be denied by someone else s religious beliefs, as that is the reason it is denied, why not allow anyone who cannot deal with life, after a certain age, the right to opt out?

    It may seem left wing but it is not, as it saves taxpayer dollars.
    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Gold level Subscriber drbrumley's Avatar
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    …those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”
    He said, “Yes.”

    And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”

    Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”

    Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
    If any of my views seem to be strange or new to you, it is to be hoped that you will not close your mind to them, but will emulate the noble Bereans, and not only read and study the chapters would discuss, but will also search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so.

  24. #420
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    in the same manner, abortion isn't murder because a corrupt, immoral and evil legal system says so
    Theft as a legal matter rests on the foundation that when something is taken from another against their will, it is a thing they have legal title to. Because if that isn't the foundation a thief has as much complaint against the police who confiscate the property he has stolen. The law establishes what constitutes that title.

    If you live here and pay taxes you are paying them willfully, participating in a system from which you derive benefits. Living in this compact is prima facie an agreement on your part to abide by the rules, to obey the law and to bear your portion of its freight. If you don't agree with the premise strongly enough you can remove yourself and are free to find another that suits you, leaving those taxes and participation behind.


    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    …Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
    So he met the obligations of the state, as he had commanded others to do.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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