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Thread: Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    That's candidly honest on your part and you'll get no criticism or accusations of dishonesty and the like from me. The thing is, I'm reasonable and aCW isn't. In his world, people being gay or bi-sexual without something happening to cause it can't compute. He's not the only one who "thinks" this but he's certainly the most obsessed on the topic. Unfortunately, there's no room for objective reason with people bound by such zealous belief systems. You either have to have been abused or traumatised as a youth or equally bizarrely, you've actually "chosen" to be something other than heterosexual in their view. People on here have insisted that I could "choose" to become gay and even attracted to inanimate objects if I "trained" myself despite being straight. Go figure...
    *laughs* I've always found amusing that the folks who think you can 'choose' to be gay never actually bother to do the one thing that would bolster their point, decide to be gay for a few years. There some activists out there who will pay real money to see you do it. But of course, you have to actually do it, not just say you did. So setting the ground rules of such a bet/experiment is critical.

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    Arthur Brain (June 16th, 2018)

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    AB, the following 3 minute video is mostly very astute words on these issues - by a former "homosexual..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpzznl22H3A&app=desktop



    Thus, Romans 5:6-8 - in EACH our STEAD.

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    JudgeRightly (June 22nd, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    *laughs* I've always found amusing that the folks who think you can 'choose' to be gay never actually bother to do the one thing that would bolster their point, decide to be gay for a few years. There some activists out there who will pay real money to see you do it. But of course, you have to actually do it, not just say you did. So setting the ground rules of such a bet/experiment is critical.
    You'll often find that the very same people who insist it can be chosen claim to be repulsed at the very notion themselves. I'm straight although there was no choice in it, just wired that way and no amount of money could change that. I could pretend, hang around a few gay bars or something but my attraction wouldn't change and the pretense would collapse after a while. There's also the fact that some of the most vociferous voices on homosexuality also happen to be projecting. There used to be a poster on here who was even more loopy on the subject than aCW called "Just Tom" who routinely made bonkers posts about how gays should be executed. Didn't take long to realize that he was in the closet himself which he finally admitted after pressing.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    exminister (August 31st, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    AB, the following 3 minute video is mostly very astute words on these issues - by a former "homosexual..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpzznl22H3A&app=desktop



    Thus, Romans 5:6-8 - in EACH our STEAD.
    Well, I don't reduce people to their sexual attractions as if that's what identifies them as a person anyway. They're simply terms that describe one facet of humanity but they're hardly "redundant" as such. On one level I identify as heterosexual as I'm exclusively attracted to women so on that score it's an apt term to use. In other areas it would be entirely irrelevant.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    annabenedetti (June 16th, 2018)

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    Much of both the understanding of temptations in general, and of the Believer's specific equipping towards dealing with said temptations (her's being "homosexual" urges in particular) asserted on this video is very much just like the understanding of, and specific equipping against, temptations in general, often written of by the Apostle Paul.

    Twelve minutes on...

    "How Does The Gospel Equip Christians Who Struggle With Same Sex Attraction"

    The first five minutes alone are gold (as are many of the rest of her eloquent words).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tKTE5r51es&app=desktop



    Finding trouble identifying with these people?

    Simply ask yourself "have I ever had similar Heterosexual temptations?"

    If so, well then...

    1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Because Romans 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, I don't reduce people to their sexual attractions as if that's what identifies them as a person anyway. They're simply terms that describe one facet of humanity but they're hardly "redundant" as such. On one level I identify as heterosexual as I'm exclusively attracted to women so on that score it's an apt term to use. In other areas it would be entirely irrelevant.
    There almost isn't an issue I have not long since studied out in Scripture and or continue to, simply out of my endless curiosity with how "things of God" work, as depicted in Scripture.

    I am just as well versed in the various sciences of men - especially in Behavioral Science, as it has been a life-long fascination of mine.

    I continue to find though, that Scripture needs no help from the findings of secular science.

    I continue to find that...

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    And how that...

    11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    In this, the OP's topic is no different a fascination as a study, as its actual issue is nothing new in so old a collection of Books as Genesis through Revelation...

    And what I have found is that Scripture "identifies" people as either lost or saved, as either sinner or saint, as either in the flesh, or in the Spirit - in short, as either being in Adam, or as being in Christ.

    All else is said by Scripture to result, or manifest from, the one or the other of those two "identities."

    In this regard, the Believer, regardless of his "temptation in my flesh" (as the Apostle Paul put that) is to view him or herself and other Believers, neither through the lens of his or her Behaviour, nor through the lens of its lack thereof, rather, through the lens that Scripture asserts is to be the Believer's lens: the lens of the Identity given him or her, IN Christ.

    Case in point, one aspect of the issue at issue for Paul in his addressing of Peter and company as described in Galatians 2, was this issue of Identity.

    Of Peter and company's unbecoming conduct or Behaviour towards those Gentiles there, as if the Law had not only proven Peter and company "sinners of the Gentiles...also" but as if the finished work or Behavior of Christ alone, had not had to be the case on both their behalf, and in each their stead.

    In this "homosexuality" is no different an issue as a temptation some Believers struggle withn in contrast to their Identity in Christ, than that of the temptation just as often experienced by the "heterosexual" against his or her Identity in Christ.

    In fact, in the gospels, where Christ is depicted saying and doing things meant to bring the issue of the flesh to even greater light, He is depicted as having noted things along that line, like the following...

    Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    That having been an extension of, and towards the following...

    Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    As on the following, example of those two issues...

    Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    On this, your supposedly "accredited science" has nothing to contribute to that, other than proving itself each time, its being nothing more than more of the same old, same old of Genesis 3's infamous "Yea, hath God said?"

    You assert you are a Believer.

    Well then, here is your owner's manual to ALL issues...

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    All else, is anything but that.

    At least for the Believer.

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Not mad at you, mind you - Romans 5:6-8.

    Just that it is time you stand by the Book you assert you hold to the Truth of...alone.

    Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

  11. #22
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    There almost isn't an issue I have not long since studied out in Scripture and or continue to, simply out of my endless curiosity with how "things of God" work, as depicted in Scripture.

    I am just as well versed in the various sciences of men - especially in Behavioral Science, as it has been a life-long fascination of mine.

    I continue to find though, that Scripture needs no help from the findings of secular science.

    I continue to find that...

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    And how that...

    11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    In this, the OP's topic is no different a fascination as a study, as its actual issue is nothing new in so old a collection of Books as Genesis through Revelation...

    And what I have found is that Scripture "identifies" people as either lost or saved, as either sinner or saint, as either in the flesh, or in the Spirit - in short, as either being in Adam, or as being in Christ.

    All else is said by Scripture to result, or manifest from, the one or the other of those two "identities."

    In this regard, the Believer, regardless of his "temptation in my flesh" (as the Apostle Paul put that) is to view him or herself and other Believers, neither through the lens of his or her Behaviour, nor through the lens of its lack thereof, rather, through the lens that Scripture asserts is to be the Believer's lens: the lens of the Identity given him or her, IN Christ.

    Case in point, one aspect of the issue at issue for Paul in his addressing of Peter and company as described in Galatians 2, was this issue of Identity.

    Of Peter and company's unbecoming conduct or Behaviour towards those Gentiles there, as if the Law had not only proven Peter and company "sinners of the Gentiles...also" but as if the finished work or Behavior of Christ alone, had not had to be the case on both their behalf, and in each their stead.

    In this "homosexuality" is no different an issue as a temptation some Believers struggle withn in contrast to their Identity in Christ, than that of the temptation just as often experienced by the "heterosexual" against his or her Identity in Christ.

    In fact, in the gospels, where Christ is depicted saying and doing things meant to bring the issue of the flesh to even greater light, He is depicted as having noted things along that line, like the following...

    Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    That having been an extension of, and towards the following...

    Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    As on the following, example of those two issues...

    Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    On this, your supposedly "accredited science" has nothing to contribute to that, other than proving itself each time, its being nothing more than more of the same old, same old of Genesis 3's infamous "Yea, hath God said?"

    You assert you are a Believer.

    Well then, here is your owner's manual to ALL issues...

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    All else, is anything but that.

    At least for the Believer.

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Not mad at you, mind you - Romans 5:6-8.

    Just that it is time you stand by the Book you assert you hold to the Truth of...alone.

    Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    I don't assert to be what you describe, I'm certainly not what you would probably consider "orthodox" and the like so quoting reams of scripture isn't going to help and people do it all the time as it is to justify whatever doctrinal belief they happen to hold to, be it MAD, JW, Calvinist etc. This isn't a "religious" thread.

    What I'm asserting is that quack therapy masquerading under science should be outlawed so that people and especially children and the vulnerable should not be forced into practices that can only cause harm to those subjected to it.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    annabenedetti (June 16th, 2018)

  13. #23
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    The basic issue is the vast majority of mental health professionals as represented by over 30 professional organizations worldwide have condemned conversion therapy as ineffective and likely to do more harm to the subject than benefit. Now some can argue politics in these different agencies as much as they want but that is the current standing of the profession.

    The various groups that promote and provide these therapies contest that but they refuse to the hard work necessary to prove that they are right. They don't do the hard research necessary to document and publish peer-reviewed studies that would show that they work.

    And then, we have many young people who are at a very sensitive and confusing time in their life entering these programs. Quite often they are entering the programs due to pressure from their parents and others.

    This latter point is very important because even if these programs work, they are only going to work for someone who is intensely motivated to succeed. If they enter the program because someone else encouraged them, they will most likely fail with significant negative consequences for the person and his family.

    All these reasons are why states are taking the appropriate action of banning these therapies for minors. It is not a matter of how bad homosexuality may or may not be, it is a matter of is the so-called cure safe.

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    Arthur Brain (June 16th, 2018)

  15. #24
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    The basic issue is the vast majority of mental health professionals as represented by over 30 professional organizations worldwide have condemned conversion therapy as ineffective and likely to do more harm to the subject than benefit. Now some can argue politics in these different agencies as much as they want but that is the current standing of the profession.

    The various groups that promote and provide these therapies contest that but they refuse to the hard work necessary to prove that they are right. They don't do the hard research necessary to document and publish peer-reviewed studies that would show that they work.

    And then, we have many young people who are at a very sensitive and confusing time in their life entering these programs. Quite often they are entering the programs due to pressure from their parents and others.

    This latter point is very important because even if these programs work, they are only going to work for someone who is intensely motivated to succeed. If they enter the program because someone else encouraged them, they will most likely fail with significant negative consequences for the person and his family.

    All these reasons are why states are taking the appropriate action of banning these therapies for minors. It is not a matter of how bad homosexuality may or may not be, it is a matter of is the so-called cure safe.
    The evidence of such practices are that they simply don't work and that's not even addressing the more extreme and unlawful ones that could qualify as torture. The various groups that might contest the rulings won't bring any peer reviewed evidence to the contrary because there isn't any, certainly not in credible circles anyway. This is why they're being systematically shut down and only the likes of NARTH and the like are feebly insisting that being gay can be cured. In fact sometimes some of these "ex gays" have ties with the likes of NARTH. I know, such a shock eh?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    The evidence of such practices are that they simply don't work and that's not even addressing the more extreme and unlawful ones that could qualify as torture. The various groups that might contest the rulings won't bring any peer reviewed evidence to the contrary because there isn't any, certainly not in credible circles anyway. This is why they're being systematically shut down and only the likes of NARTH and the like are feebly insisting that being gay can be cured. In fact sometimes some of these "ex gays" have ties with the likes of NARTH. I know, such a shock eh?
    I think the medical concensus is likely right about the worth of these programs but we have to allow the possibility that maybe one of them does work. The problem is if NARTH and the like want to prove it they have to do the HARD work to prove it and convince the medical community. They need to do the following:

    Establish a single treatment methodology that they think will work. Not the mass mix of stuff they have now.

    Do serious documentation on the treatment subjects, including an evaluation that provides a baseline measurement of their sexual orientation. Any results are meaningless if you don't know a bisexual from a homosexual. An evaluation method that doesn't depend on the subject's feeling would be critical.

    Document the treatment and continually evaluate the subject's sexual orientation for a degree of change.

    After treatment, follow the subjects to measure recidivism.

    Document the process and result and get it peer reviewed.

    This is hard work and will take years but if their programs work like they claim the should be able to do this.

    AND until they do that hard work, minors should be protected from what the current evidence says is a dangerous treatment.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    I think the medical concensus is likely right about the worth of these programs but we have to allow the possibility that maybe one of them does work. The problem is if NARTH and the like want to prove it they have to do the HARD work to prove it and convince the medical community. They need to do the following:

    Establish a single treatment methodology that they think will work. Not the mass mix of stuff they have now.

    Do serious documentation on the treatment subjects, including an evaluation that provides a baseline measurement of their sexual orientation. Any results are meaningless if you don't know a bisexual from a homosexual. An evaluation method that doesn't depend on the subject's feeling would be critical.

    Document the treatment and continually evaluate the subject's sexual orientation for a degree of change.

    After treatment, follow the subjects to measure recidivism.

    Document the process and result and get it peer reviewed.

    This is hard work and will take years but if their programs work like they claim the should be able to do this.

    AND until they do that hard work, minors should be protected from what the current evidence says is a dangerous treatment.
    I reckon the current scientific consensus has it right on the button but fair enough. If there is any validity to the notion that people can be treated in such a way that their orientation can be changed then sure, let's see it set out, all the steps involved, the processes adopted and all on record for stringent peer review.

    That ain't gonna happen because those who peddle this garbage know that their "methodology" has been proven not to work already via peer review and that's why so called "therapy" has and is being been shut down. There's no actual 'hard work' involved, not that there was any to begin with because multiplying something by zero always ends with the same result and these people know this but don't want to acknowledge it.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Why would anyone advocate a treatment program for a healthy person? Isn't that the same thing as saying gays are mentally ill?

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    of course gays are mentally ill

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  21. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I don't assert to be what you describe, I'm certainly not what you would probably consider "orthodox" and the like so quoting reams of scripture isn't going to help and people do it all the time as it is to justify whatever doctrinal belief they happen to hold to, be it MAD, JW, Calvinist etc. This isn't a "religious" thread.

    What I'm asserting is that quack therapy masquerading under science should be outlawed so that people and especially children and the vulnerable should not be forced into practices that can only cause harm to those subjected to it.
    We're basically in agreement as to your points in that second paragraph.

    As for your points in your first paragraph, we will have to disagree with one another.

    At the same time, on another issue, I, for example, hold a Pro-Life view.

    However, I do not believe it is my business to attempt to legislate any of my views on people who do not hold said views.

    All one can do is engage in the exchange of one's views with others and hear theirs out - even when they do not care to hear one's own views out.

    For even within actual Pauline Christianity (not what is often represented on TOL by some), the Apostle Paul while calling out his own, at the same time noted to his own...

    2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

    Meaning even within actual Pauline Christianity things come down to "in the end, it's between you and your faith as to God."

    Likewise is the case as to issues between a "Believer" and "non-Believer" as far as where the "Believer" is to be concerned in the end.

    Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    of course gays are mentally ill
    Scripture refers to all such "temptations in the flesh" as "inordinate affection" and "deceitful lusts" - in ALL humanity.

    But Romans 5:6-8.

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