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Thread: Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal

  1. #106
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Hey, anna, hope all is well with you...
    Hi Danoh.

    For starters, you might want to re-read that chapter on Commitment and Consistency in your pdf copy of Cialdini's classic work "Influence."



    Rom. 5:6-8
    I'm familiar with it, thanks. I'm not seeing that it would apply in such a way, since it's more likely parents coming to the realization (more so in past generations) that their son is gay are likely to fight, deny, downplay, fear, etc. the realization rather than have an early and strong commitment to acceptance. The cultural pressures are difficult - family can be hurtful and divisive, there's religious condemnation, and of course the mental and emotional minefields that person has to cross.
    So keep your candles burning

    a.k.a. starchild, starburst, stardust, sweetpea, and dumber than dirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    I am quite likely misunderstanding your meaning, if so I do apologize. Regardless of the reason though, if it does not work what is the point?



    it works towards removing an infectious cancer from society

    but all of this is moot - to address artie's OP question:

    "Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal" is a poorly worded question - it would be better written "Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Unnecessary"

    and the answer would be that homosexuality should be a capital crime

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    it works towards removing an infectious cancer from society

    but all of this moot - to address artie's OP question:

    "Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal" is a poorly worded question - it would be better written "Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Unnecessary"

    and the answer would be that homosexuality should be a capital crime
    I see.

    Not really a viable solution for 21st Century America and based on history really wouldn't solve anything either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit the Coyote View Post
    Thank you, I've added them to my reading list. What I have seen so far reminds me of Dianetics. I look forward to seeing how NLP stands up when the hard work is done.
    Haven't read up on Dianetics in quite some time.

    NLP is a Behavioral Modeling technology.

    If someone is a perfect speller, for example, through a series of Modeling questions, the NLP Modeler attempts to build a model of how such an individual uses his neurology, its language and his body, and so on, to create that result.

    He then takes this Model that he has unpacked, for Modeling or Replication at will, by anyone desirous of that skill.

    Over the years the Model has resulted in many useful Models and Patterns and from many areas of life.

    Case in point as to one of those Patterns, some time ago, a friend of mine was trying to quit a decades old, five pack a day, chain smoking habit.

    The guy would light up one cigarette just as his last one was at its very end. He'd go through two or three cigarettes, or more, each time he'd smoke.

    Using a Pattern modeled from people who've succeeded in redirecting such a powerful compulsion, I was able to help him with his problem after just 20 minutes with him over the phone.

    Absent of any crankiness, absent of any withdrawal, and of his later replacing of that negative habit with another, and absent of his ending up gaining much weight (his weight merely stabilized), and so on.

    Years later, he is still free of that nasty habit.

    Interestly, he once said to me some time later " I no longer see myself as...a smoker."

    Which is a statement about Identity and what that often automatically results in, or compels - Behavior in line with said sense of...Identity *.

    At that same time, all this Behavioral Modeling is, is an aspect of the following "invisible" all human beings manifest in their resulting "visible" behavior...

    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

    Although the above is actually a very small part of where I view temptation / compulsion issues from.

    I mean such things are much more "holistic" (involve much more of an individual than a mere compulsion).

    In the end, overall perspectives on these kinds of things tend to end up slightly different in perspective for each individual looking at such things - always, it depends on the whole of each person's own experiences, understandings, awarenesses and or lack, thereof, and so on.

    _______________

    * Cialdini's classic book "Influence" contains a fascinating chapter on how sense of Identity or Self...compels Behavior, I found great points of agreement with. The chapter titled "Consistency and Commitment."

    You should be able to find an older edition of it on Google in pdf form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Haven't read up on Dianetics in quite some time.

    NLP is a Behavioral Modeling technology.

    If someone is a perfect speller, for example, through a series of Modeling questions, the NLP Modeler attempts to build a model of how such an individual uses his neurology, its language and his body, and so on, to create that result.

    He then takes this Model that he has unpacked, for Modeling or Replication at will, by anyone desirous of that skill.

    Over the years the Model has resulted in many useful Models and Patterns and from many areas of life.

    Case in point as to one of those Patterns, some time ago, a friend of mine was trying to quit a decades old, five pack a day, chain smoking habit.

    The guy would light up one cigarette just as his last one was at its very end. He'd go through two or three cigarettes, or more, each time he'd smoke.

    Using a Pattern modeled from people who've succeeded in redirecting such a powerful compulsion, I was able to help him with his problem after just 20 minutes with him over the phone.

    Absent of any crankiness, absent of any withdrawal, and of his later replacing of that negative habit with another, and absent of his ending up gaining much weight (his weight merely stabilized), and so on.

    Years later, he is still free of that nasty habit.

    Interestly, he once said to me some time later " I no longer see myself as...a smoker."

    Which is a statement about Identity and what that often automatically results in, or compels - Behavior in line with said sense of...Identity *.

    At that same time, all this Behavioral Modeling is, is an aspect of the following "invisible" all human beings manifest in their resulting "visible" behavior...

    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

    Although the above is actually a very small part of where I view temptation / compulsion issues from.

    I mean such things are much more "holistic" (involve much more of an individual than a mere compulsion).

    In the end, overall perspectives on these kinds of things tend to end up slightly different in perspective for each individual looking at such things - always, it depends on the whole of each person's own experiences, understandings, awarenesses and or lack, thereof, and so on.

    _______________

    * Cialdini's classic book "Influence" contains a fascinating chapter on how sense of Identity or Self...compels Behavior, I found great points of agreement with. The chapter titled "Consistency and Commitment."

    You should be able to find an older edition of it on Google in pdf form.
    It does sound interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    Hi Danoh.



    I'm familiar with it, thanks. I'm not seeing that it would apply in such a way, since it's more likely parents coming to the realization (more so in past generations) that their son is gay are likely to fight, deny, downplay, fear, etc. the realization rather than have an early and strong commitment to acceptance. The cultural pressures are difficult - family can be hurtful and divisive, there's religious condemnation, and of course the mental and emotional minefields that person has to cross.
    I was thinking more along the line of its solid findings on how Sense of Self compels our drives our Behaviors.

    As in the following, which is an example of how sense of Identity is meant to impact or compel...Behavior.

    Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Those females on those two fascinating videos I posted earlier on this thread base much of their dealings with temptation as Believers on those kinds of Sense of Identity Based passages.

    Those passages are two thousand years old.

    Well, some have figured out something similar regarding these kinds of Identity driven Behavior connections, within the secular world.

    What's missing? The last twelve words in a passage like the following...

    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Anyway, to finish this post, you'll recall that at one point Cialdini's book goes into some really fascinating examples of what our U.S. Military found the Chinese had done to many of our G.I. P.O.W.s returning home from the North Korean conflict - how that so many of them - once proud, strong "name, rank, and serial number" Red, White and Blue American G.I.s to their core - returned home Communist sympathizers without so much as an insult having been used on them. *

    Robbins lays out how to consciously build a Model of much of that in his book "Awaken the Giant Within" (lol, gotta love these secular titles) that one can use at will to impact one's Behavior at the level of Sense of Identity.

    _______________

    * Yeah, right, trust that repeatedly professed "too smart to read Intel Reports" Trump, of all people, had even the remotest of a clue as to who he was actually dealing with, in the Chinese and the North Koreans.

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