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Thread: Sports Talk 2018: Lebron to Brady and Everything in Between

  1. #136
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Well, Bill took Brady's team to 11 wins when Tom went down for a year, and made every backup who got serious playing time look like the next big thing, much to the eventual embarrassment of the teams who bought into the impression. I think Bill has a system and a genius for coaching and adjusting that does for his team what great athletes can do in terms of raising their level of play and efficiency.
    All this applies to Joe Montana. Joe Montana was a system QB. He played in what is probably the most famous system in NFL history, The West Coast Offense. Steve DeBerg played in the West Coast Offense in 1979. This was Bill Walsh's first year as 49ers head coach and DeBerg's second year in the NFL. DeBerg led the NFL in pass completions and pass attempts. Steve Young was a terrible QB in Tampa. He comes to the 49ers and the West Coast Offense turns Young into a Hall of Famer. Elvis Grbac put up way better numbers as a 49er than he did playing anywhere else.

    But my larger point is what is wrong with being a system QB? You seem to use it as a pejorative. In a sense every NFL QB is a system QB. Weren't Dan Fouts and Dan Marino also system QB's? Both put up incredible passing numbers in their era. Marino's record 5,084 passing yards in 1984 stood as the NFL record for 27 years until the NFL gutted their rules to make passing far easier.

    As for Joe, well, Joe beat his old team with future Hall of Fame QB Steve Young while playing for the Chiefs. Even in his broken down state he was amazing. Afterward, Young said he guessed he still had a lesson to learn from "the master." And he played and won differently with different supporting casts while he was with the Niners.
    This doesn't prove that Joe wasn't a system QB. The Chiefs implemented a variant of the West Coast Offense.

    Tom and Joe are a lot alike actually, only Joe played much better on the biggest stage. Better than anyone ever had before or has since, in sum.
    Joe often played great in the postseason but not always. Joe was terrible in 1987 losing to the Wild Card Vikings at home. Joe was so bad that he was benched at half time. Then there's the 49-3 thrashing Joe and 49ers took from the Giants in 1986. But in Super Bowl play Joe was the best. No doubt about that.

    Great game by your Warriors tonight, but I was sorry KD tried to do what his body clearly wasn't prepared for. It helped them win tonight and prolong the series, but it will take extraordinary will and even better play by the support if they're going to take it to seven.
    Terrible, terrible injury for KD. :-( We'll have to see how bad the injury is.
    Last edited by The Berean; June 11th, 2019 at 10:11 AM.
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  2. #137
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Back to the NBA

    Looks like Town Heretic was correct. No way should KD have played and risked worsening his injury. This injury may keep KD out a year. Had he not played, he would have got big $ in free agency. Now, not so likely.

    Toronto had the ball in Leonard's hands, with the chance to win the championship, and he passed the ball........Jordan never would have done that.

    IMO, Golden State will win it. They will be the only team to blow a 3-1 lead, and only team to come back from a 3-1 deficit in the finals......kinda like Virginia losing as a #1 seed in the first round, then winning it the next year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Back to the NBA

    Looks like Town Heretic was correct. No way should KD have played and risked worsening his injury. This injury may keep KD out a year. Had he not played, he would have got big $ in free agency. Now, not so likely.

    Toronto had the ball in Leonard's hands, with the chance to win the championship, and he passed the ball........Jordan never would have done that.
    Ummm...

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    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Back to the NBA

    Looks like Town Heretic was correct. No way should KD have played and risked worsening his injury. This injury may keep KD out a year. Had he not played, he would have got big $ in free agency. Now, not so likely.
    Word is now KD might exercise his player option for next season at $31 million. In essence the Warriors would be paying KD to rehab all next season. LOL.
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

    I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
    . -Ktoyou

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  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    All this applies to Joe Montana. Joe Montana was a system QB. He played in what is probably the most famous system in NFL history, The West Coast Offense.
    Unlike Tom, he won with a second team, performing well enough to beat a loaded Niners team he'd left even after he was, by any objective examination, about physically done. And while the Chiefs played a similar style of offense, the "West Coast" offense was more approach than it was defined by particular plays. And all of football is either run, pass short, or deep and what emphasis you place on what particular.

    Steve DeBerg played in the West Coast Offense in 1979. This was Bill Walsh's first year as 49ers head coach and DeBerg's second year in the NFL. DeBerg led the NFL in pass completions and pass attempts.
    DeBerg never had a qb rating higher than 73 with the Niners and threw more ints than tds with them, which is part of the reason he wasn't there very long. He had some talent and one really good year, late in his career.

    Nothing like the success that Brady's backups have had in Bill's system.

    Steve Young was a terrible QB in Tampa.
    He looked like many rookie qbs in his first truncated year. In sum, his first two years saw him playing just a couple of more games than one full regular season. And Manning was awful in his first 16 starts. Favre was bad enough early that Atlanta moved him without any real regret.

    It happens early for some. It takes maturation, games under center. Or it did before enough rules were changed that playing the position became much easier, as it did for Peyton, Tom, and that generation of qb, which is why Marino's long wait as the singular member of the 5k club suddenly found him in a modern crowd.

    He comes to the 49ers and the West Coast Offense turns Young into a Hall of Famer.
    It was more about being given real time under center and particular tailoring to his strengths when Montana was down for long stretches over two years. He had uncommon skills. in 88 he subbed for double digit games and showed something, though his overall performance was of a really good backup with flashes, mostly regarding his legs and the impact of that mobility. The next year he was still under center for 11 games, with the offense tinkered to maximize his impact and, unsurprisingly, he realized a lot of his potential.

    Elvis Grbac put up way better numbers as a 49er than he did playing anywhere else.
    A little misleading. He started a grand total of 9 games in 3 years for SF. Hard to say what a guy has with that limited a sampling. In 95 he started 4 games and threw 8 tds against 5 picks. The next year he started 5 and regressed, with 8 tds against 10 picks. Over time and with more games he did better, but even in the similar Chiefs offense he never really took off, spent most of his career looking like the decent backup that he was.

    But my larger point is what is wrong with being a system QB?
    Nothing at all, but it contextualizes the level of play and accomplishments, just as understanding rules changes will.

    You seem to use it as a pejorative. In a sense every NFL QB is a system QB.
    I think teams and systems impact how we see qbs, unless they have the opportunity to shine in multiple locals, which rarely happens, or they do as well with different team mates. Montana managed both. Warner did it. Peyton too, though both Kurt and Manning played in easier eras than Joe.

    Weren't Dan Fouts and Dan Marino also system QB's?
    If by system, with Dan, you mean the gave him the ball and said find a way. Fouts would be more of a fit for that, though he was largely overrated, gaining most of his reputation in three great years.

    Both put up incredible passing numbers in their era. Marino's record 5,084 passing yards in 1984 stood as the NFL record for 27 years until the NFL gutted their rules to make passing far easier.
    Yep. He and Joe played when the sort of performances they managed were much harder to come by. It's one reason why I rate them higher and an tougher on the qbs that followed.

    This doesn't prove that Joe wasn't a system QB. The Chiefs implemented a variant of the West Coast Offense.
    Well, football isn't dramatically different in any system, unless you're the Bears. With Tom I look at him riding the team to the first ring, a-la Big Ben. He won and got to the first three by fgs. I think he was overrated early, though he grew into one of the best I've ever seen by the time he was in his prime. Amazing to watch.

    I think the real advantage Tom had that Marino almost never did, top ten defenses and a coach that would hamper the other team, adjust as well as anyone I've seen on the fly, and give his qb the chance to win with solid play. Because almost without exception, that's when Brady and company won their rings and how.

    Joe often played great in the postseason but not always. Joe was terrible in 1987 losing to the Wild Card Vikings at home. Joe was so bad that he was benched at half time. Then there's the 49-3 thrashing Joe and 49ers took from the Giants in 1986. But in Super Bowl play Joe was the best. No doubt about that.
    Yeah. Every qb has a few of those. Peyton and Brady, despite the rules change, had a few stinkers. But on the biggest stage, and I know we're agreeing, it's Joe. To me, that's why he's the GOAT. Though I'll say this about Tom, I've never seen anyone do it that well for that long. He's the Jabbar of the NFL.

    Terrible, terrible injury for KD. :-( We'll have to see how bad the injury is.
    It was my concern, but for what it's worth I think it may have made the team a different animal. I can't see your guys winning out, but I'm rooting for them.
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  6. #141
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    Ummm...
    Point taken.

    However, I still think Leonard should have taken the shot. He made the magical shot to win Game 7 against Philly, and they didn't need a 3-pointer, they were only down by 1. Lowry taking a deep 3 wasn't the best option IMO.
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    The Warriors dynasty has truly ended tonight. First KD is gone for a year. The Warriors lose the NBA Finals. And now the news is that Klay Thompson has a torn ACL. He'll miss most of next season as well.
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    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

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    I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    The Warriors dynasty has truly ended tonight. First KD is gone for a year. The Warriors lose the NBA Finals. And now the news is that Klay Thompson has a torn ACL. He'll miss most of next season as well.
    You guys were just snake bit this year. And you still went toe to toe with a very good team. Then, when Klay went down and you saw Curry sitting there on the floor, watching, understanding that the moment wasn't going to come, that they were going to leave the last of the floor to the enemy.

    It wasn't fair, but then, neither was signing KD to begin with...it happens. The basketball gods are frequently cruel. Ask almost everyone who didn't play for the Bulls during Jordan's run.
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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    The Warriors dynasty has truly ended tonight. First KD is gone for a year. The Warriors lose the NBA Finals. And now the news is that Klay Thompson has a torn ACL. He'll miss most of next season as well.
    It doesn't look good for the Warriors next year.

    Not only will they not have KD and Klay for most of the year, they have to pay both of them also.

    Anthony Davis and Kawahi Leonard are free agents.........
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    Numbers of players projected to play during the 2019 NFL season who,

    -played in the 2001 NFL season: 1
    -played in 13 conference championships: 1
    -played in 9 SBs: 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    Numbers of players projected to play during the 2019 NFL season who,

    -played in the 2001 NFL season: 1
    -played in 13 conference championships: 1
    -played in 9 SBs: 1
    I wonder if this is the season where he hits the wall early instead of late. Brees was falling off late as well.

    A year to keep an eye on them, to be sure, for a couple of reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    It doesn't look good for the Warriors next year.

    Not only will they not have KD and Klay for most of the year, they have to pay both of them also.

    Anthony Davis and Kawahi Leonard are free agents.........
    A lot of people think the win makes Kawahi more likely to stay where he's adored, but I think he's a realist and understands that trophy was partly a reflection of an unbelievable bad streak of luck for GS. Next year? He'll need a lot more help. Will he get that in Toronto? Or will he have to take his talents elsewhere?
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    45 years ago today, Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches and struck out 19 batters over 13 innings.
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    45 years ago today, Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches and struck out 19 batters over 13 innings.
    'Talk about an arm. 'Could be the best one ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    'Talk about an arm. 'Could be the best one ever.
    I think it is between Ryan and Koufax...
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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