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Thread: Free will is simply....

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Free does not convey choice. Birds are seemingly free, lions are seemingly free, but not by choice. They are subject to bondage by the will of Elohim. Romans.
    Birds, etc., do not appear Consciously Aware of their choices. As a result, they tend to go about functioning like automatons.

    I'm reminded of a city pigeon I once observed, as a child.

    A traffic light was on Red.

    The pigeon spots a crumb under the rear tire of a car stopped in traffic.

    By the time it makes its way over to that crumb, the light is at Yellow.

    Just as it pokes its head right under that tire to reach that crumb, the light turns Green and the pigeon's head goes "Splat!"

    Conscious choice on that pigeon's part?

    Nope.

    We're talkin creatures that live in their own excrement, and even build nests for their young out of it.

    In contrast, Romans 1 asserts that man knew of God but Consciously CHOSE NOT TO acknowledge Him His due.

    Which is actually a reiteration of man's Conscious Choice in Genesis 11, against God's edict in Genesis 9.

    Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

    9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

    Genesis 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

    Why?

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    You are not a pigeon, nor do you have any right to be looking to the lower forms of creation for your example of man.

    Leave that to the secular world.

    Try instead Consciously Choosing to go with what Scripture actually says on these things over your Unconsciously Choosing to go with your own two cents ("the wisdom of men").

    1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Isaiah 8:20.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    This message is hidden because Danoh is on your ignore list.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Your stupidity is manifesting.
    Your inability to understand does not imply stupidity on my part.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "God made man in His own image, so man has free will by his very nature and nothing man does can change that".


    And so man can create his own planets, because Elohim did? Yeah, take a hike.
    God made man in His own image with free will, not in His own nature with the power to create planets.

    You are really going off the deep end in your attempts to deny the reality of free will.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Tautology means using two consecutive words that have the same meaning. Like stupid idiot.
    Tautology may refer to:
    Tautology (grammar), the use of redundant words
    Tautology (logic), a universal truth in formal logic

    Since you don't have the free will needed to exercise logic, it makes sense that the only form of Tautology you know about is grammar.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Those that oppose the truth prove that their will is not free, but in bondage to sin and Satan.
    Since you are opposing the truth that God gave us free will, you are declaring yourself to be in bondage to sin and Satan.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Free to choose according to one’s nature yes. Not free to will oneself into righteousness.
    Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    That means he is able to choose between righteousness and wickedness using the free will that God gave him.
    Adam did not eat of the tree of Total Depravity as all the people that foolishly believe in Original Sin seem to think.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    This message is hidden because Danoh is on your ignore list.
    Apparently not.



    And, more like "Ruster, this message from Danoh based on Scripture is hidden from you because Scripture is on your ignore list."



    Rom. 5:6-6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    That means he is able to choose between righteousness and wickedness using the free will that God gave him.
    Adam did not eat of the tree of Total Depravity as all the people that foolishly believe in Original Sin seem to think.
    Original Sin

    Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Regardless of whatever it is that an Augustine or whomever may, or may not have said.

    Rom. 5:6-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Original Sin

    Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Regardless of whatever it is that an Augustine or whomever may, or may not have said.

    Rom. 5:6-8
    You seem to be focusing on the wrong verses and taking them completely out of context.
    Try these ones.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



    Joshua 24:15
    15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.



    Genesis 4:3-7
    3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
    4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
    5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Free does not convey choice. Birds are seemingly free, lions are seemingly free, but not by choice. They are subject to bondage by the will of Elohim. Romans.
    So you think "free" means "bound"?

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Free to choose according to one’s nature yes. Not free to will oneself into righteousness.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are you talking about salvation?

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You seem to be focusing on the wrong verses and taking them completely out of context.
    Try these ones.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



    Joshua 24:15
    15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.



    Genesis 4:3-7
    3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
    4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
    5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
    Nope.

    That had been this - had had this intent in mind here...

    Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    In other words...

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Or, to put that another way as to what had been one purpose behind the Law through Behavior...

    Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    For the fact of the matter is the following underlying issue as the "origin" of sinful Behaviour...

    Mark 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

    YOU missed the obvious, due to YOUR focus on Behaviour itself.

    The verses I posted point back to the "origin" of the sinful fruit (Behavior)

    YOU are incorectly focused on the Behaviour.

    Said "origin" being "sin which is in my members" - "in the flesh" - "no good thing within" and so on.

    Man sins (Behaviour) because he IS a Sinner (Identity); he is NOT a Sinner, because he sins.

    Sinner is the Higher Level of abstraction from which all other manifestations of said Higher Level of Identity are to be viewed - adulterer, fornicator, murderer, thief, covetous, wicked, deceiver, lascivious, evil eye, blasphemor, proud, foolish, etc.

    Thus, why the need for Rom. 5:6-8 - not after man got his act together - an impossibility given the above words of Christ Himself - but "while we were yet sinners."

    Well, I've said my piece on this, any more will be more of the same, based in Scripture.

    You'll have to find someone else to attempt to sway to your error.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    YOU missed the obvious, due to YOUR focus on Behaviour itself.

    The verses I posted point back to the "origin" of the sinful fruit (Behavior)

    YOU are incorectly focused on the Behaviour.
    I focus correctly on the heart, which is the seat of faith, and the behavior, which is the expression of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Man sins (Behaviour) because he IS a Sinner (Identity); he is NOT a Sinner, because he sins.
    That is a lie from the adversary.
    The truth is that it is the act of sinning that turns a man into a sinner, even if that sinning is done only in the heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Well, I've said my piece on this, any more will be more of the same, based in Scripture.

    You'll have to find someone else to attempt to sway to your error.

    Rom. 5:6-8.
    I was taught the same error you are holding onto when I was a child.
    But, now that I am a man I have put aside those childish teachings and know for a fact that the vast majority of the Bible contradicts the falsehood of man being sinful from birth due to Original Sin.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Free will is simply wishful thinking on the part of man.



    "I know, O Yah Veh, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps".

    "We can make our plans, but the Yah Veh determines our steps."

    If you have free will why is your life so miserable? Why don't you have all things that your free will has determined you deserve? Why do things not turn out the way your free will has determined?

    3 X's ? are rhetorical.


    "for dominion belongs to Yah Veh and he rules over the nations." Despite mans wishful thinking.
    Here's what I know about free will. If there's no free will, then all murder and rape convictions are unjust. So there better be free will.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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