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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Your will is not free in any way, shape or form that enables it to choose that which is just. In fact scripture says, "your just acts are as filthy rags".
    Did you choose to worship God?
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
    Jeremiah 10:23

    It seems to me that both verses indicate we aren't capable of making that choice effectually. That's the whole point about directing. A man is subject to something - he is either subject to God or subject to his own ways.
    Directing is about showing the way, but it is the ones that are shown the way that must choose to walk in the way they were shown.

    Exodus 18:20
    20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.



    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    Romans 8:7-9

    If you are capable of choosing good over evil all the time, then the Spirit of Christ wouldn't be essential. That Spirit is what set us free from the LAW of sin and death (Romans 8:2). If not set free then you are still subject to it.
    When Paul talks about the "carnal mind", he is not speaking about something you have that is directing your thoughts.
    Instead, Paul is speaking about how you are choosing to direct your own thoughts using your free will.

    Romans 8:6
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


    You are always capable of choosing righteousness over wickedness through the free will that God gave you.
    Without the ability to choose righteousness over wickedness, you could never choose to believe in Jesus as the Christ and would never receive the Holy Spirit.

    Having the Spirit of Christ in you makes it easier to know what is righteous and to choose righteousness over wickedness.

    Romans 8:13
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



    This is not a black or white issue.
    People are not purely wicked (Original Sin, Total Depravity) without the Spirit of Christ in them.
    Nor are people purely righteous when they have the Spirit of Christ in them.

    Our free will works all the time and is only constrained by what we have learned throughout our lives.
    As we learn more about what is righteous and what is wicked, we have more choices.
    That is why Paul in Romans 7 was lamenting about how his study of the Law gave him more opportunities to sin.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Your will is not free in any way, shape or form that enables it to choose that which is just.
    Of course it is.
    God made each and every one of us with a free will that is capable of choosing both righteousness and wickedness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    In fact scripture says, "your just acts are as filthy rags".
    No it does not.
    You need to study the scriptures to show yourself approved instead of taking words out of context.

    There are two groups of people being talked about.
    In this prayer, Isaiah is comparing the minority of the children of Israel that have chosen righteousness against the majority that has refused to do so.

    Isaiah 64:5
    5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.


    The verse containing the words you misquoted are referring to the collective children of Israel who have refused to follow the way that God has shown them.

    Isaiah 64:6
    6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


    In Isaiah's prayer, he is claiming that God will not consider anything righteous that they do as anything more than used menstrual cloths because of the rest of their sins.

    When we look at the words of God to another prophet, it becomes even more clear how God treats any righteousness you have done when you have turned against Him.

    Ezekiel 18:24
    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    A dog can’t will himself to fly, he doesn’t have the nature of a bird.
    God made man in His own image, so man has free will by his very nature and nothing man does can change that.

    Genesis 1:26-27
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Adam could not search for God because he assumed the nature of sin and death. Man if left alone would not seek God like Adam did not seek God, no not even one.
    No, Adam did not assume the nature of sin and death.
    Adam still had the very nature of a man created in the image of God, complete with free will.
    When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, his eyes were opened to see, but his nature remained unchanged.

    Genesis 2:6-7
    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.



    It is interesting how the rest of the Bible teaches the difference between being blinded and having your eyes opened to see.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Of course it is.
    God made each and every one of us with a free will that is capable of choosing both righteousness and wickedness.


    No it does not.
    You need to study the scriptures to show yourself approved instead of taking words out of context.

    There are two groups of people being talked about.
    In this prayer, Isaiah is comparing the minority of the children of Israel that have chosen righteousness against the majority that has refused to do so.

    Isaiah 64:5
    5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.


    The verse containing the words you misquoted are referring to the collective children of Israel who have refused to follow the way that God has shown them.

    Isaiah 64:6
    6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


    In Isaiah's prayer, he is claiming that God will not consider anything righteous that they do as anything more than used menstrual cloths because of the rest of their sins.

    When we look at the words of God to another prophet, it becomes even more clear how God treats any righteousness you have done when you have turned against Him.

    Ezekiel 18:24
    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    Your stupidity is manifesting.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    Did you choose to worship God?
    No. He chose me, to worship Him, in spirit and in truth. And that is, by grace and through trust, what I do.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    "God made man in His own image, so man has free will by his very nature and nothing man does can change that".


    And so man can create his own planets, because Elohim did? Yeah, take a hike.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    Did you choose to worship God?
    I chose after God enabled my will to make the choice contrary to its fallen nature


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,"

    No man has ever chosen. Anyone who thinks or says he has is deluded and has never been set free by the truth.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,"

    No man has ever chosen. Anyone who thinks or says he has is deluded and has never been set free by the truth.
    If so, what purpose do you serve in disclosing our estrangement from freewill? Wherefore exists the righteousness in that which lacks the power of personal volition, No change may be forthcoming outside God's decree correct? The non-elect are essential as the elect.

    Ergo, what point may the commentary possibly serve?
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    If so, what purpose do you serve in disclosing our estrangement from freewill? Wherefore exists the righteousness in that which lacks the power of personal volition, No change may be forthcoming outside God's decree correct? The non-elect are essential as the elect.

    Ergo, what point may the commentary possibly serve?
    Elohim is glorified in all His works. He is glorified in the salvation of sinners and He is glorified through the destruction of sinners.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Elohim is glorified in all His works. He is glorified in the salvation of sinners and He is glorified through the destruction of sinners.
    Ok...the saint and the sinner are both necessary and inevitable. Would not your God see the injustice in the destruction of some of those unwilling participants whilst exhalting a select few?
    Or...rather is it your ego which chooses to favor this point? (As I have a sneaking suspicion that you aspire to the latter persuasion.)
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    I chose after God enabled my will to make the choice contrary to its fallen nature


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You sure insist on complicating the obvious.

    This is really quite simple.

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    And so on.

    In other words, the gospel presents man with a crystal clear picture of his fallen condition and its expected end result, Romans 1:18-3:20.

    Together with that, it presents man with an escape from that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house" Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-31.

    At which point man has a choice: whether to choose to believe the gospel, or to choose to reject it.

    This is no different than choosing to believe or not believe anything else in life.

    Just as you choose to believe that the link you are about to click on in your response to this post, will send said response forward.

    Faith is that simple.

    As Hebrews 11 asserts, faith is often against what appears too good to be true.

    The very problem of every Grace illiterate out there against Justification by Grace through Faith ALONE.

    Nevertheless...

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    As in Abraham's case...

    Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    Exactly!

    Hebrews 11:1's "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    God's response?

    Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    You...are going against this that was written about how faith actually works: by choice.

    Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    You see that - man's expected response is to choose to believe the evidence of things not seen.

    Notice...

    Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Those Unbelieving Israelites chose to not believe; chose to be a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: AND WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT BE ashamed.

    Which is the issue of one putting one's money where one's mouth is...

    John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

    But the point again is that it is obvious that faith is a choice.

    Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, BUT ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 BEING THEN MADE FREE from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    It effectually works in you THAT BELIEVE.

    NOT SO THAT you believe.

    Whether or not, you - choose - to believe - that...is your choice.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    Ok...the saint and the sinner are both necessary and inevitable. Would not your God see the injustice in the destruction of some of those unwilling participants whilst exhalting a select few?
    Or...rather is it your ego which chooses to favor this point? (As I have a sneaking suspicion that you aspire to the latter persuasion.)
    I have often given you the benefit of the doubt in the hope that your questions are in some way honest. But yet again you have shown your true colours and your vile intents. I'm putting you on ignore as I should have done long before this.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    I have often given you the benefit of the doubt in the hope that your questions are in some way honest. But yet again you have shown your true colours and your vile intents. I'm putting you on ignore as I should have done long before this.
    I would've said that it's your prerogative to do so but apparently it's God's will...not yours or mine.
    So, no call, no foul!
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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