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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    You're wrong and the Bible shows you. You ignore God's choice, God's election and God's predestination.
    No I do not in the least actually. You just don't even want to attempt to understand my understanding because you want it to be contrary to yours. Either that, or you aren't being genuine when you speak about our choosing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    ...You ignore God's choice, God's election and God's predestination.
    All of those coexist with genuine human free will.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    No I do not in the least actually. You just don't even want to attempt to understand my understanding because you want it to be contrary to yours. Either that, or you aren't being genuine when you speak about our choosing.

    Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
    I understand that you are objectively wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    All of those coexist with genuine human free will.
    It's not free.
    God does not have you or allow you to co-exist with His Sovereignty. He rules. You live under His rule. It's not a co-rulership. You are a slave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    It's not free.
    God does not have you or allow you to co-exist with His Sovereignty. He rules. You live under His rule. It's not a co-rulership. You are a slave.
    So some are slaves to sin and others slave to GOD. and will those who are slaves to sin; will they be reconciled?

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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    So some are slaves to sin and others slave to GOD. and will those who are slaves to sin; will they be reconciled?

    Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
    God is not obligated to reconcile them. Adams sin, which passes on to us, means that our law breaking deserves judgment rather than reconciliation. God may, however, choose to reconcile and purchase slaves to sin and make them slaves to righteousness. The Sovereign God and King gets to make that decision. You and I do not get to choose.
    That being said, when God makes you alive in Christ and gives you the gift of faith...you will know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    It's not free.
    God does not have you or allow you to co-exist with His Sovereignty. He rules. You live under His rule. It's not a co-rulership. You are a slave.
    And we are free.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    And we are free.
    Not according to the Bible. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Which is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Not according to the Bible. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Which is it?
    I believe the whole Bible. What I don't believe is that your view is cogent with the things that we are taught to do and to say as Christians. With your view, there is no need to be good, for instance, since nothing we do or say or believe can influence God's election, which is the sole determiner of who will be saved according to your clavinist view. If this were true, then the New Testament would not be littered with emphasis upon good morals.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    I believe the whole Bible. What I don't believe is that your view is cogent with the things that we are taught to do and to say as Christians. With your view, there is no need to be good, for instance, since nothing we do or say or believe can influence God's election, which is the sole determiner of who will be saved according to your clavinist view. If this were true, then the New Testament would not be littered with emphasis upon good morals.
    We are not good. We were born corrupt and we will die corrupt.
    Humans who are not reconciled with God may act in vile ways because they have no one to hold them accountable. Pure hedonism is expected. Even the moral things they do are done with selfish motives.
    God tells his reconciled children what he expects and how we are to live. We obey because we have had our sins pardoned by the atoning work of Jesus. What amazing grace and love displayed to a corrupt and vile being. How can the one who is forgiven so much, not love the Forgiver?
    Romans 9 answers your dilemma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    We are not good. We were born corrupt and we will die corrupt.
    Humans who are not reconciled with God may act in vile ways because they have no one to hold them accountable. Pure hedonism is expected. Even the moral things they do are done with selfish motives.
    God tells his reconciled children what he expects and how we are to live. We obey because we have had our sins pardoned by the atoning work of Jesus. What amazing grace and love displayed to a corrupt and vile being. How can the one who is forgiven so much, not love the Forgiver?
    Romans 9 answers your dilemma.
    You clavinists get one critical thing wrong, and it's this one error that sustains your error of clavinism.

    It's in the I. You're fine on the T, U, L, and P, your problem's with the Irresistible grace. That part simply looks like, on the outside, to observers, like somebody who, as some famous song lyrics put it, as Weezer sings, "found Jesus," and as Ben Fold sings, "gave your life to Jesus Christ," and as another song puts it, "have a friend in Jesus," and as DC Talk put it, someone being irresistibly regenerated by the Spirit becomes "a Jesus freak."

    That observable change to a person, which oftentimes corresponds to conversion, is traced by Paul to believing in Christ's Resurrection, that's the kernel/seed of the Christian faith. The sine qua non.

    Clavinists fail to understand the simplicity of the Gospel. There's a user on here who quotes Strom Thurmon or Charles Spurgeon or some other clavinist, saying something like, 'Clavinism IS the Gospel.' smh.

    And when clavinism admits this error, you'll all convert to Catholicism. ('Water's fine.)

    You can go Orthodox too, but wouldn't, since understanding the Gospel enables you to understand how free will and God's unlimited power, in every fine detail, over every speck of His creation, can and do coexist, and more; that this symbiosis defines the correct definition of 'free will' and 'God's exhaustive definite sovereignty.'

    You still may go Orthodox. But there are religious orders in the Catholic Church. Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits---there's a lot of them, those are just the ones that come to mind. Benedictines. Carmelites. There are many others. They are where Catholics go, if just being Catholic is not feeding the measure of their faith enough meat, and they can pursue one of those religious orders to fill their bellies. Orthodoxy seems to have higher hurdles for all the Orthodox faithful, and not just for their monks. The tradition seems a bit overtaken by monks, if I'm being honest.

    So I don't think ex-clavinists will opt for Orthodoxy. They'll come home to the Catholic Church instead. New, and fresh, >4X as many Catholics as Orthodox in the world, plus the idea that Peter was the first supreme pastor of the Church, and that the papacy is simply his same office, passed down to now his 265th successor, is eminently reasonable.

    The Orthodox believe in Peter's pastorate, they still authorize Catholics to receive the Orthodox Eucharist, but they do not recognize Peter's pastorate as supreme.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    You clavinists get one critical thing wrong, and it's this one error that sustains your error of clavinism.

    It's in the I. You're fine on the T, U, L, and P, your problem's with the Irresistible grace. That part simply looks like, on the outside, to observers, like somebody who, as some famous song lyrics put it, as Weezer sings, "found Jesus," and as Ben Fold sings, "gave your life to Jesus Christ," and as another song puts it, "have a friend in Jesus," and as DC Talk put it, someone being irresistibly regenerated by the Spirit becomes "a Jesus freak."

    That observable change to a person, which oftentimes corresponds to conversion, is traced by Paul to believing in Christ's Resurrection, that's the kernel/seed of the Christian faith. The sine qua non.

    Clavinists fail to understand the simplicity of the Gospel. There's a user on here who quotes Strom Thurmon or Charles Spurgeon or some other clavinist, saying something like, 'Clavinism IS the Gospel.' smh.

    And when clavinism admits this error, you'll all convert to Catholicism. ('Water's fine.)

    You can go Orthodox too, but wouldn't, since understanding the Gospel enables you to understand how free will and God's unlimited power, in every fine detail, over every speck of His creation, can and do coexist, and more; that this symbiosis defines the correct definition of 'free will' and 'God's exhaustive definite sovereignty.'

    You still may go Orthodox. But there are religious orders in the Catholic Church. Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits---there's a lot of them, those are just the ones that come to mind. Benedictines. Carmelites. There are many others. They are where Catholics go, if just being Catholic is not feeding the measure of their faith enough meat, and they can pursue one of those religious orders to fill their bellies. Orthodoxy seems to have higher hurdles for all the Orthodox faithful, and not just for their monks. The tradition seems a bit overtaken by monks, if I'm being honest.

    So I don't think ex-clavinists will opt for Orthodoxy. They'll come home to the Catholic Church instead. New, and fresh, >4X as many Catholics as Orthodox in the world, plus the idea that Peter was the first supreme pastor of the Church, and that the papacy is simply his same office, passed down to now his 265th successor, is eminently reasonable.

    The Orthodox believe in Peter's pastorate, they still authorize Catholics to receive the Orthodox Eucharist, but they do not recognize Peter's pastorate as supreme.
    All that and you never once had any evidence from scripture. All ya did was whine. Do you know that Calvin never had a five point system? Did you know that the reason five points came up was because the followers of Arminius created a five point system and Calvinists in Holland responded back in rebuttal?
    The evidence that slams the door on free-will is the scriptures themselves. In God's word we read about God's choice, God's election and God's predestination.
    How do you deny Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 Peter and 2 Peter, Hebrews, John, Acts, etc.? Taking a handful of sentences out of context to prooftext a man-made philosophy of free-will is not good exegesis. I suggest you read the Bible and actually let it say what it does in its context. The whole of scripture states God's Sovereignty over human choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    All that and you never once had any evidence from scripture. All ya did was whine. Do you know that Calvin never had a five point system? Did you know that the reason five points came up was because the followers of Arminius created a five point system and Calvinists in Holland responded back in rebuttal?
    The evidence that slams the door on free-will is the scriptures themselves. In God's word we read about God's choice, God's election and God's predestination.
    How do you deny Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 Peter and 2 Peter, Hebrews, John, Acts, etc.? Taking a handful of sentences out of context to prooftext a man-made philosophy of free-will is not good exegesis. I suggest you read the Bible and actually let it say what it does in its context. The whole of scripture states God's Sovereignty over human choice.
    1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV

    The Gospel is Christ's Resurrection. That's all that's happening in the I of TULIP. You believe that Christ is risen. Romans 10:9 KJV Clavinists, and Clavin himself pour all sorts of complication into what happens when a soul is crucified, dies, is buried, and is risen with Christ (cf. the Church's sacrament of baptism)---it's very simple. That soul has gone from believing Christ's Resurrection is fictional, to believing that He is risen, nonfiction historical event. You have the Spirit doing so much, all of it very imprecisely explained, during the I in TULIP, that you lose the plot; you lose the forest for the trees.

    You need to pull your eyes away from your navel just for a moment, and consider what it means that Christ Jesus our Lord is risen from the dead, 'for realz.' And that Paul says that believing in the Resurrection constitutes bona fide saving Christian faith, Ro10:9KJV. And that if He is still dead, then Christianity---implicitly including clavinism too---is lower than whale feces. It's a sham. A fraud.
    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

    @Nee_Nihilo

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    Here's 1 Corinthians 15. Explain free-will from this chapter. I don't see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV

    The Gospel is Christ's Resurrection. That's all that's happening in the I of TULIP. You believe that Christ is risen. Romans 10:9 KJV Clavinists, and Clavin himself pour all sorts of complication into what happens when a soul is crucified, dies, is buried, and is risen with Christ (cf. the Church's sacrament of baptism)---it's very simple. That soul has gone from believing Christ's Resurrection is fictional, to believing that He is risen, nonfiction historical event. You have the Spirit doing so much, all of it very imprecisely explained, during the I in TULIP, that you lose the plot; you lose the forest for the trees.

    You need to pull your eyes away from your navel just for a moment, and consider what it means that Christ Jesus our Lord is risen from the dead, 'for realz.' And that Paul says that believing in the Resurrection constitutes bona fide saving Christian faith, Ro10:9KJV. And that if He is still dead, then Christianity---implicitly including clavinism too---is lower than whale feces. It's a sham. A fraud.
    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

    29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why are we in danger every hour? 31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

    42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

    50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

    56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

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    Here's Romans 10. Explain free-will from this passage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolater View Post
    1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV

    The Gospel is Christ's Resurrection. That's all that's happening in the I of TULIP. You believe that Christ is risen. Romans 10:9 KJV Clavinists, and Clavin himself pour all sorts of complication into what happens when a soul is crucified, dies, is buried, and is risen with Christ (cf. the Church's sacrament of baptism)---it's very simple. That soul has gone from believing Christ's Resurrection is fictional, to believing that He is risen, nonfiction historical event. You have the Spirit doing so much, all of it very imprecisely explained, during the I in TULIP, that you lose the plot; you lose the forest for the trees.

    You need to pull your eyes away from your navel just for a moment, and consider what it means that Christ Jesus our Lord is risen from the dead, 'for realz.' And that Paul says that believing in the Resurrection constitutes bona fide saving Christian faith, Ro10:9KJV. And that if He is still dead, then Christianity---implicitly including clavinism too---is lower than whale feces. It's a sham. A fraud.
    1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

    18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

    “Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”

    19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

    “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

    20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

    “I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

    21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

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