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Thread: God decides who does or doesn't believe.

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    TOL Legend intojoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Again-non responsive-the lost, "non elect" can say that. That is no assurance, outside of yourself. Again:

    How do you know that you are one of "the elect," "saved?"
    Non elect cannot say they are born again. You might say you are non elect but you would be doctrinally incorrect DI thatís a good one. Lol


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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Non elect cannot say they are born again.
    Sure they can. By definition, you cannot know whether they are, or not, unless you are God. So, them saying they are "born again," makes them no different than you, in terms of "proof."

    Prove that you are "born again," "elect," by your own definition, and others are not. How do we know that you are "born again," which is your definition of being one of "the elect?"


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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    It’s called moderate Calvinism John. Look it up. In order for you to refute my belief you have to address the 4 point Calvinist view. Trying to group it together is simply laziness or a lack of care which is good, I don’t really care what AMR thinks because it’s wrong on many levels.


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    No, you contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.

    Is that like "moderately" dead, alive, pregnant...?
    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.
    There is not scriptural evidence that you can be "elect," and not "always saved," as "elect," by definition, means never being in danger of being "lost."

    You're another idiot Clavinist/Calvinist, who cannot think straight. My evidence? You.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Non elect cannot say they are born again. You might say you are non elect but you would be doctrinally incorrect DI that’s a good one. Lol


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    Don't be so NAIVE. No doubt, there are many people who go around saying they're 'Born Again' but they're not.

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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Don't be so NAIVE. No doubt, there are many people who go around saying they're 'Born Again' but they're not.
    And he assumes what must be proven.
    Saint John W

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    TOL Legend intojoy's Avatar
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    The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.
    Vs. you, previously, on "As the Calvinist Spins...:"


    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.
    Thus, "the elect," by definition, are/were never in danger of being lost, of not being delivered/preserved from a danger(the definition of "saved"/"salvation"). So, you/Calvinism is moronic, or the LORD God is a moron-no other option.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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    Again-slight of hand...

    You "chosen ones," "Elect Ones," to guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, billions of years ago, were not really guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, until they hear the gospel, and thus saved,so, elect does not mean guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God,as the Calvinist redefines the meaning of the words "elect," and makes the LORD God to be as much of an impotent moron, as they are, as the Calvinist asserts, "The elect are saved, but not until they are saved."


    =Log in, lose your mind.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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    Prove that you are "born again," "elect," by your own definition, and others are not. How do we know that you are "born again," guaranteed salvation/immortality,which is your definition of being one of "the elect?"
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    The theological definition of the term the elect: That portion of humanity whom God foreordained unto salvation from the mass of humanity that were condemned to hell and who are guaranteed immortality in this life until they hear the gospel and are saved.


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    Well, you did say that is "the theological definition..."



    Think I'll stick with Scripture, instead: Free Will.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    I'm curious, you're big on the writings of brother Fruchtenbaum; does he also hold to this "theological definition" you are so enamoured with?

    Thanks, in advance.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    There are true heroes of past wars that have proved that there is no such thing as a coercion that cannot be denied through free will.
    The good I want to do I cannot. The evil I would not do, I do...
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    You "chosen ones," "Elect Ones," to guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, billions of years ago, were not really guaranteed salvation/immortality, by the LORD God, until they hear the gospel, and thus saved...
    Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    The phrase that HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED toevery creature under heaven uses a past tense that means "past and finished but is repeated into the future"...how about that? How does EVERY creature having heard the gospel fit with the idea that each person is created on earth at conception or birth and humans HAVE NOT HEARD until they are young children???

    Let's just ignore the cognitive dissonance this verse creates for those who believe in the current "created on earth" theology and pretend this verse does not say what it clearly says!

    Thus to those who believe this verse says every creature under heaven has heard the gospel already so we must have all heard it before human life which implies that our election is probably based upon an acceptance of the gospel and condemnation was based upon their rejection of YHWH's deity and rejection of the gospel promises.

    Then life on earth is explained: all sinners were sent to prison earth for the elect sinners to become holy and then the non-elect sinners would be condemned so the heavenly marriage could begin, Matt 13, the parable of the good seeds and the evil tares.

    Think of the good seeds...how are they good when they are sinful, liable to be pulled up by the judgement on the tares? None are good, not one, so this word in this place can
    not mean 'morally good'! Therefore I suggest it must refer to their election as a place holder or true status holder for them when their sins are over and they are fully sanctified and holy. Both sets of seeds are sinful but the people of the kingdom are 'good' and the people of the evil one are 'condemned already...' How can that be?? I hope by now you understand how they can be born as 'good' when morally none are good and the tares are born evil and condemned, supposedly not having heard the gospel yet, sigh.


    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    The phrase that HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED toevery creature under heaven uses a past tense that means "past and finished but is repeated into the future"...how about that? How does EVERY creature having heard the gospel fit with the idea that each person is created on earth at conception or birth and humans HAVE NOT HEARD until they are young children???

    Let's just ignore the cognitive dissonance this verse creates for those who believe in the current "created on earth" theology and pretend this verse does not say what it clearly says!

    Thus to those who believe this verse says every creature under heaven has heard the gospel already so we must have all heard it before human life which implies that our election is probably based upon an acceptance of the gospel and condemnation was based upon their rejection of YHWH's deity and rejection of the gospel promises.

    Then life on earth is explained: all sinners were sent to prison earth for the elect sinners to become holy and then the non-elect sinners would be condemned so the heavenly marriage could begin, Matt 13, the parable of the good seeds and the evil tares.

    Think of the good seeds...how are they good when they are sinful, liable to be pulled up by the judgement on the tares? None are good, not one, so this word in this place can
    not mean 'morally good'! Therefore I suggest it must refer to their election as a place holder or true status holder for them when their sins are over and they are fully sanctified and holy. Both sets of seeds are sinful but the people of the kingdom are 'good' and the people of the evil one are 'condemned already...' How can that be?? I hope by now you understand how they can be born as 'good' when morally none are good and the tares are born evil and condemned, supposedly not having heard the gospel yet, sigh.


    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    I sincerely doubt that "all" there included any Chinese; Japanese, Koreans; North and South American Natives, and so on.

    The Apostle Paul had simply been referring to...

    Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

    Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

    And here's that "all...the world" again.

    Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

    You must that know many many cultures did not even know of Greeks and or their religion.

    But back to Paul...

    Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    After that, he ended up where?

    Under house arrest.

    Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Shortly after which, he was martyred...

    2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:

    But again, his use of "all" did not always refer to "all."

    Case in point, again...

    2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

    Well, not really "all..."

    1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

    2 Timothy 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 4:12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

    2 Timothy 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. 4:21 Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.

    Obviously, not "all which be in Asia...turned from" him.

    Acts 17:11, 12.

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    I know all does not always = all but how then do we know when it does. The witness of the Holy Spirit leads us.... There is no proof in the scripture in that every verse can be contradicted by man, as it should be for we live by faith, not proof.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

  17. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    I know all does not always = all but how then do we know when it does. The witness of the Holy Spirit leads us.... There is no proof in the scripture in that every verse can be contradicted by man, as it should be for we live by faith, not proof.
    Take this how you might, or might not.

    Personally, I enjoy challenge to my views and or understandings, but far often find very few up to the task.

    Yours, at least in the above, is a case in point.

    Doesn't have to be, but it is.

    And doesn't mean that will always be the case.

    But in the above, all you have done now is trade in your previous "one size fits all" for several others just like it.



    For the same rule of thumb I based my assertions about "all" not always meaning "all" on, must also be applied to determining what a phrase like "the witness of the Holy Spirit leads us..." means, as well as to how, and when, etc.

    And it must also be applied to determining the validity of these other "one size fits all" assertions of yours: that (1) "There is no proof in the scripture...that every verse can be contradicted by man," and also, your: (2) "as it should be for we live by faith, not proof."

    Heck, Genesis 3's "Yea, hath God said" is ALL the "proof" one could ever need as "proof in the Scripture...that every verse can be contradicted by man."

    As for your other "one size fits all there" - nope to that one also.

    Fact of the matter is that faith IS based on a proof of sorts.

    The basis of my faith in this?

    Passages like the following - proof - that faith is based on a proof of sorts...

    Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

    Okay, so some did not buy what Paul was "alleging" and even became more than a bit hostile towards him - obviously, given what THEY considered "proof."

    In contrast...

    17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

    So off he goes to Berea, where he finds some who believe what he opens and alleges.

    The basis of their faith?

    The following proof...

    17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

    Where you ended up off (your various "one size fits all"s) was in your obviously having failed to be a bit more rigorous in your approach before allowing yourself your conclusions.

    Which basically involves REPEATEDLY asking oneself questions like "okay, now where are the holes in this that I am about to conclude on, and or assert - what have I not considered that I would do well to? What else? And what else?"

    And again, the next time. And the next time after that. And the next time after that one...

    Of course, those kinds of questions and their results much more refined than those of someone else, will repeatedly end you up in hot water with the incompetents, the lazy, and the insecure, and those who resort to all sorts of fool conclusions about another, and or to all sorts of name calling, on forums - but such and their coddlers are not Who we will EACH have to answer to one day.

    1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

    Jeremiah 32:10 And I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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