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Thread: God decides who does or doesn't believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You read "offended" into other people's posts quite often. Why do you do that?
    Because you refused to tell me you love me


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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Because you refused to tell me you love me

    I do love you. I don't know why, but I just do.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (June 12th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Lighten up, dude. You're taking yourself as seriously as Danoh does. Not a good sign.
    @Sherman - time to practice toward GD what you so easily do towards me.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Yep....you're sounding more like Danoh with each passing day.
    @Sherman - time to practice toward GD what you so easily do towards me.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I do love you. I don't know why, but I just do.
    Same to you but not her


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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    A true free will is free from coercion, not mere influences. A coercion cannot be denied and forces the choice to go in only one direction or choose only one option of all those available.
    There are true heroes of past wars that have proved that there is no such thing as a coercion that cannot be denied through free will.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Of the various passages I cited, take this one, for example...

    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    We know from Acts and in various passages in Paul's writings that although that may have been Paul's heart's desire (in other words, his heart felt prayer, thus, those two phrasings in that passage), nevertheless, his had been a heartfelt desire towards God as to the salvation of Israel that God had NOT been able to grant him.

    For while, on the one hand, God's own desire was /is "that all men be saved" 1 Tim. 2:4, on the other hand, man obviously has free will *.

    Anyway, at this point, I will have to continue to hold to the understanding that it is the Believer's heart attitude that the various prayer, evangelism, etc., passages are attempting to focus the Believer on.

    And why not?

    Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    Seems to me an attitude of gratitude is what doing things in remembrance of Him, has always been God's desire as to the Believer's heart.

    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    And...

    Philippians 1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; 1:13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

    1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

    The Believer's Heart Attitude!

    At the same time, whether we are agreed or not on any of the above, whether
    a little, or a lot, nevertheless, thank you for your contribution to the renewing of my mind on these things that your words set off in me, as I meditated on these issues once more, and in light of the Scripture on them.

    Such is never a waste of time.

    Such is ever a redeeming of the time.

    Rom. 14:5 - in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

    ____________________

    * And man o man what an expensive spending account said free will can be...

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    So this means God doesnít answer prayers. Got it. I disagree friends. Jesus says we should ask in order to receive. He even says that continual asking will produce results. Furthermore you have not because you ask not. The whole idea of this heart attitude in prayer and in evangelism is just a copout to fit a preconceived foolish idea that God does not know the future. See the demonic thinking of open theism on display?


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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Because Iím born again.


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    Again-non responsive-the lost, "non elect" can say that. That is no assurance, outside of yourself. Again:

    How do you know that you are one of "the elect," "saved?"
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Is there a question here? I donít care much for Charlie


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    No, you "argued:"


    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved.
    You contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.sx
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    So this means God doesnít answer prayers. Got it. I disagree friends. Jesus says we should ask in order to receive. He even says that continual asking will produce results. Furthermore you have not because you ask not. The whole idea of this heart attitude in prayer and in evangelism is just a copout to fit a preconceived foolish idea that God does not know the future. See the demonic thinking of open theism on display?


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    Lol ya big ol lovable big Kahuna you.



    For the laugh is clearly on you in your having read things into a thing.

    One, I have never held an Open Theist View (which is nothing more than a failure to understand the continued assertion of both Prophecy and Mystery that NOTHING EVER takes GOD by surprise).

    You forget that the Acts 9 Mid-Acts I hold to is often at odds in understanding on one thing or another with that promoted on here as "MAD" by one individual, or another.

    Fact is that many a Pastor-Teacher and their assemblies within Acts 9 MAD are NOT OV.

    Heck, there are probably some of "like precious faith" in Hawaii.

    Two, you are citing an understanding of prayer promises based on how God deals with His "sign" people: the Nation Israel.

    Promises of THE PHYSICAL presently ON HOLD until at some point AFTER Rom. 11:25.

    Three, per, say 2 Corinthians 5, if you desire that someone might know the Lord, then the thing to do is to go over there and get to beseeching them "in Christ's stead."

    He is IN you, is He not?

    Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

    Get tuh, preachin - the gospel of Christ!



    Romans 5:6-8.
    Last edited by Danoh; June 13th, 2018 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    I think youíre purposefully ignoring the moderate Calvinist position because youíre unable to deal with it unless you bundle it up with hyper Calvinist doctrine. Youíre showing weakness.


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    No, we know that you are side stepping.

    You're demonic "logic"- You are "elect," but you may not be "saved," until you come to faith, which makes the definition of "elect" mute, irrelevant, nonsensical, and God is an idiot, like all you Calvinists.

    Define "elect." Do be a dear.
    Saint John W

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post

    Define "elect." Do be a dear.
    No matter what one's soteriological view, the elect are those upon whom God has set His special preference upon, such that at the appointed time they will be (and cannot not be) regenerated and saved and not lost to Him.

    For the anti-Calvinist, this "love before time" is all who call upon the name of the Lord per their own free choice (the elect), a choice that can also be to freely reject said calling upon the name of the Lord (the non-elect), in the fullness of time known only to God, from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News.

    For the Reformed and/or Calvinist, this "love before time" for the elect is a finite, but great multitude that cannot be numbered, that will be, in the fullness of time known only to God, granted faith upon regeneration (Eze. 36:26), from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. This grant of faith is necessary because all non-believers possess no moral rectitude to choose wisely given their fallen state in Adam:

    Spoiler

    The unregenerate is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2), must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5), cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2-1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2-3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:15-20).


    Per this regenerative action by God, via God the Holy Spirit, the regenerated person now possesses the moral rectitude to not not believe. Hence, he or she will believe of their own free choice because the grace extended to the regenerate is efficacious such that he or she will not genuinely want to not believe.

    Prior to that exact moment in both instances above, all remain under the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    No matter what one's soteriological view, the elect are those upon whom God has set His special preference upon, such that at the appointed time they will be (and cannot not be) regenerated and saved and not lost to Him.

    For the anti-Calvinist, this "love before time" is all who call upon the name of the Lord per their own free choice (the elect), a choice that can also be to freely reject said calling upon the name of the Lord (the non-elect), in the fullness of time known only to God, from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News.

    For the Reformed and/or Calvinist, this "love before time" for the elect is a finite, but great multitude that cannot be numbered, that will be, in the fullness of time known only to God, granted faith upon regeneration (Eze. 36:26), from the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good News. This grant of faith is necessary because all non-believers possess no moral rectitude to choose wisely given their fallen state in Adam:

    Spoiler

    The unregenerate is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2), must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5), cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2-1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2-3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:15-20).


    Per this regenerative action by God, via God the Holy Spirit, the regenerated person now possesses the moral rectitude to not not believe. Hence, he or she will believe of their own free choice because the grace extended to the regenerate is efficacious such that he or she will not genuinely want to not believe.

    Prior to that exact moment in both instances above, all remain under the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3).

    AMR
    I did not ask you to define the term "elect." I asked intojoy, based on his/her "argument." Pay attention:

    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    The elect are not saved until they come to faith. That’s what I was taught. There is no scripture evidence that teaches the elect were always saved. Paul claimed that we are seated in heavenly places but I think he meant he is so sure of the completion of our salvation that we are seen that way.
    I countered:

    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Catch that bit of nonsense, TOL audience?

    If they are "elect," by definition, they have no need to be saved, "delivered/preserved" from a danger, as they are already "elect," which, from the (perverted) Calvinist view, thus chosen as God's children, adopted, and "faith" is quite irrelevant.

    So, just whom do you think you are talking to on this board? Your Uncle Joe, whoosamovin' kinda slow?

    This is a prime example of the "logic," "reasoning," of these idiot Calvinists.




    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Catch that demonic "logic?" You are "elect," but you may not be "saved," until you come to faith, which makes the definition of "elect" mute, irrelevant, nonsensical, and God is an idiot, like all you Calvinists.

    Define "elect." Do be a dear.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Lol ya big ol lovable big Kahuna you.



    For the laugh is clearly on you in your having read things into a thing.

    One, I have never held an Open Theist View (which is nothing more than a failure to understand the continued assertion of both Prophecy and Mystery that NOTHING EVER takes GOD by surprise).

    You forget that the Acts 9 Mid-Acts I hold to is often at odds in understanding on one thing or another with that promoted on here as "MAD" by one individual, or another.

    Fact is that many a Pastor-Teacher and their assemblies within Acts 9 MAD are NOT OV.

    Heck, there are probably some of "like precious faith" in Hawaii.

    Two, you are citing an understanding of prayer promises based on how God deals with His "sign" people: the Nation Israel.

    Promises of THE PHYSICAL presently ON HOLD until at some point AFTER Rom. 11:25.

    Three, per, say 2 Corinthians 5, if you desire that someone might know the Lord, then the thing to do is to go over there and get to beseeching them "in Christ's stead."

    He is IN you, is He not?

    Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

    Get tuh, preachin - the gospel of Christ!



    Romans 5:6-8.
    Well great. But JW is open theist. And it was his failed attempt at answering the assertion that God incorporated the means in the end result. That God used the evangelism of those like Billy G to be part of the process of the salvation of those he reached. It was a very weak suck attempt but I was gracious enough to say I could see how one could think that way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    No, you "argued:"




    You contradict what most idiot Calvinists assert.sx
    Itís called moderate Calvinism John. Look it up. In order for you to refute my belief you have to address the 4 point Calvinist view. Trying to group it together is simply laziness or a lack of care which is good, I donít really care what AMR thinks because itís wrong on many levels.


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