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Thread: Jesus taught existence after death

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Paul learned it from Him

    Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

    Nothing there about coming back from their spirit realms to enter their bodies...

    So do not marvel and make things fantastical or sensational...
    absence of evidence is not evidence

    you chose verses that do not address what happens to our spirits

    you could use these verses but no evidence here either of what happens to our spirits.
    Mat 14:11 And his head was brought on a platter and was given to the girl, and she brought it to her mother.
    Mat 14:12 And having come, his disciples took the body and buried it; and coming, they reported to Jesus.

    these verses address what happened to spirits before the cross
    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


    what about Him?...at that point the Father was in heaven...His Son resting in the tomb...it was Sabbath
    where is God in luke 3:22 ?

    Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    no punctuation marks in the original
    trying to move goal post
    hence “Truly I say to you today...” important day that...day of poor thief’s death...nice to get a final verdict that day
    Truly, I say to you, punctuated at least 72 times like this

    Luk_23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Here's a hint: It's not talking about Christians there. As you so nicely bolded, "the children of the promise" is referring not to Christians (otherwise Paul would have used "we" or "us" instead of "they"), it's referring to those who entered the promise (God's promise to Israel) and became Israel. Read what Paul had just said:

    "On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be..." what? "RECKONED!'"

    "Through Isaac" is referring to Jesus Christ, who came to His own to reckon them.

    "Your offspring" is referring to Israel, being God's chosen nation (and even Gentiles could become part of that nation by becoming proselytes).

    Paul, in Romans 9:6-8 is not talking about Christians. He's talking about proselyte Jews, and by extension believers who entered into the promise in the one year before God cut off Israel in Acts 9.

    Christians are not Israel, though I do see how you've confused yourself into thinking that they are.

    Getting back on track, now that that issue is all cleared up...

    Cherub, again I ask, now that you know that Israel includes people who are not of the literal bloodline of Abraham, and that Christians are not Israel, who is also known the "Elect Lady":

    Will Israel alone exist for all eternity, and all other humans be annihilated? Or will Christians, who are NOT Israel (aka God's Elect) also exist forever with God?
    Before people were called Christian they were called converts to Judaism. We are a Grafted Branch.

    Hosea 1:9
    Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Hosea 1:10
    “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Hosea 2:23
    I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’ I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’; and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Romans 9:25
    As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Romans 9:26
    and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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    Branch Of The Lord

    Isaiah 4:2
    In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.

    Isaiah 11:1
    A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

    Jeremiah 23:5
    “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

    Jeremiah 33:15
    “‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land.

    Zechariah 3:8
    “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

    Romans 11:17
    If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

    Romans 11:19
    You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”

    Romans 11:23
    And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Romans 11:24
    After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    John 15:1
    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

    John 15:4
    Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    John 15:5
    “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.




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    Who is a Jew or the nation Israel.
    This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


    Genesis 17:3

    Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


    Genesis 35:11
    And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


    Exodus 12:37
    The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


    Leviticus 19:34
    The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


    Leviticus 24:22
    You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


    Numbers 15:15
    The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


    Joshua 8:33
    All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


    Esther 8:17
    In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

    The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

    Psalm 2:4
    The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
    on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


    Psalm 82:8
    Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


    Psalm 111:6
    He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


    Isaiah 9:3
    You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


    Isaiah 14:1
    The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


    Isaiah 26:15
    You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself;
    you have extended all the borders of the land.


    Isaiah 44:5
    One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


    Isaiah 56:3
    Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
    and who hold fast to my covenant-
    7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
    8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


    Ezekiel 47
    21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


    Zechariah 2:10
    "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."


    Matthew 12:21
    In his name the nations will put their hope."



    The Parable of the Tenants
    Luke 20
    9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
    13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

    " 'The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

    19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


    Acts 3:25
    And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


    Romans 2:28
    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    Romans 3:29
    Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


    Romans 4:13
    It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
    16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


    Romans 4:18
    Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


    Romans 8:17
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


    Romans 9:24
    even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


    Romans 10:12
    For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


    Romans 10:19
    Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


    1 Corinthians 14:21
    In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


    Ephesians 2:12
    remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


    Ephesians 2:19
    Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


    Ephesians 3:6
    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:29
    If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    Colossians 3:11
    Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


    Titus 3:7
    so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


    Revelation 2:9
    I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


    Revelation 3:9
    I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


    Isaiah 65:15
    You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

    Acts 11:26
    and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


    A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

    Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

    A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Obviously, a soul without a physical body wouldn't be able to interact with a physical object.
    obviously? LOL millions of christians and for centuries have been deceived that a spirit could live forever tormented by physical flames and living off what?...since spirits cant eat the tree of life NOT in hell...lol

    I'm asking if the fruit (when used) is for the restoration of the soul/spirit, to regenerate it/them, or if it's for the restoration of the body, to regenerate it?
    the tree is there for the healing of the nations...

    The body is restored glorified so I imagine no need for restoration or regeneration...and well the spirit returns from the Giver...doubtful it needs restoration or regeneration...the soul has been sleeping and I imagine is well rested and refreshed...


    But not sure the details...hoping to find out...when I am absent this mortal body and to be finally present with Him after the resurrection day and chewing on the fruit of the tree of life....how about you?

    Yes no it’s not obvious that the equation is:

    dust formed + spirit breathed in = living soul mortal and dependent on the tree of life...which is not available in the “garden of hell”...obviously...?

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    obviously? LOL millions of christians and for centuries have been deceived that a spirit could live forever tormented by physical flames and living off what?...since spirits cant eat the tree of life NOT in hell...lol

    the tree is there for the healing of the nations...

    The body is restored glorified so I imagine no need for restoration or regeneration...and well the spirit returns from the Giver...doubtful it needs restoration or regeneration...the soul has been sleeping and I imagine is well rested and refreshed...


    But not sure the details...hoping to find out...when I am absent this mortal body and to be finally present with Him after the resurrection day and chewing on the fruit of the tree of life....how about you?

    Yes no it’s not obvious that the equation is:

    dust formed + spirit breathed in = living soul mortal and dependent on the tree of life...which is not available in the “garden of hell”...obviously...?
    Let me ask you this then:

    When God made Adam, did He intend for Adam to live forever? or would Adam, being perfect, have lived for some period of time and then died? (Obviously, Adam sinned, and died. This is asking a "what if" question, a hypothetical, to test what you're saying to see if it holds water in multiple situations)

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    absence of evidence is not evidence
    you keep saying

    you chose verses that do not address what happens to our spirits

    you could use these verses but no evidence here either of what happens to our spirits.
    Mat 14:11 And his head was brought on a platter and was given to the girl, and she brought it to her mother.
    Mat 14:12 And having come, his disciples took the body and buried it; and coming, they reported to Jesus.
    right that there is no evidence there is why I didnt use these verses...that the spirit returns from its Giver is learned elsewhere...

    these verses address what happened to spirits before the cross
    spirits or bodies...being carried and resting on a bosom lends itself to being more than spirit...so if jews back then had uncovered graves the bodies would be gone? Poor friend Lazarus didnt even have 4 days of paradise...or maybe his body was carried back?

    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
    so body or spirit? How far off before Abraham is NOT recognizable...oh and how did rich man know? And the distance the gulf the roar of flames and yet rich man can converse with the other side?

    Abraham teaches one risen from the dead does not convince...so much for the gospel eh?




    where is God in luke 3:22 ?

    Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
    heaven sending His spirit in the shape of a dove...why you ask?


    trying to move goal post
    lol...you trying to insert something more than punctuations marks


    Truly, I say to you, punctuated at least 72 times like this

    Luk_23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
    punctuated by who?...cuz they not be in da originals...


    John the revelator is clear that when He comes He brings the reward with Him...fluttering about as a spirit prior this is impoverishing that reward...how does it live unable to eat of the tree of life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Let me ask you this then:

    When God made Adam, did He intend for Adam to live forever? or would Adam, being perfect, have lived for some period of time and then died? (Obviously, Adam sinned, and died. This is asking a "what if" question, a hypothetical, to test what you're saying to see if it holds water in multiple situations)
    Have you read genesis? Good grief...

    Adam was made mortal but to eat of the tree of life and live forever...but when he disobeyed he was cut off...

    Lest he reach out take eat and live forever-he was tossed and prevented access by the light sabering cherubim

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Have you read genesis? Good grief...

    Made Adam mortal but to eat of the tree of life and live forever...but when he disobeyed he was cut off...

    Lest he reach out take eat and live forever-he was tossed and prevented access by the light sobering cherubim
    Clefty, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make my questions, yet you seem to always misunderstand what I'm asking, or to answer a question that I'm not asking.

    Clefty, Did God intend for Adam to live forever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Clefty, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make my questions, yet you seem to always misunderstand what I'm asking, or to answer a question that I'm not asking.

    Clefty, Did God intend for Adam to live forever?
    Yes...Adam was created mortal but to eat of the tree of life and live forever...but when he disobeyed he was cut off...

    Lest he reach out take eat and live forever-he was tossed and prevented access by the light sabering cherubim

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Yes...Adam was created mortal but to eat of the tree of life and live forever...but when he disobeyed he was cut off...

    Lest he reach out take eat and live forever-he was tossed and prevented access by the light sabering cherubim
    Just want to point out...

    "Adam was created mortal ... and [to] live forever" is a contradictory statement. "Mortal" means "subject to death"...

    Anyways... How, then, is it possible, even for God, to destroy something that He Himself designed to exist forever?

    I assert that not even God can destroy that which is designed to exist for eternity. Let me put it this way: Let's say you had the ability to create things, and you wanted to make something and have it exist for eternity, would you not design it in such a way that it could not be destroyed? Does that make sense? If you design something so that it lasts for eternity, it's not going to be able to be destroyed by any amount of energy or exertion, because it would take more than an eternity's worth of energy or exertion to destroy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Yes...Adam was created mortal but to eat of the tree of life and live forever...but when he disobeyed he was cut off...

    Lest he reach out take eat and live forever-he was tossed and prevented access by the light sabering cherubim
    so according to you death is not a result of sin but sin caused us to not be able to eat from the tree of life.

    lie mixed with truth

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    you keep saying
    absence of evidence is not evidence

    right that there is no evidence there is why I didnt use these verses...that the spirit returns from its Giver is learned elsewhere...
    absence of evidence is not evidence

    spirits or bodies...being carried and resting on a bosom lends itself to being more than spirit...so if jews back then had uncovered graves the bodies would be gone? Poor friend Lazarus didnt even have 4 days of paradise...or maybe his body was carried back?
    trying aggressive ignorance now?
    spirits separate from bodies

    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side

    so body or spirit? How far off before Abraham is NOT recognizable...oh and how did rich man know? And the distance the gulf the roar of flames and yet rich man can converse with the other side?
    calling Jesus a liar .
    Abraham teaches one risen from the dead does not convince...so much for the gospel eh?
    Jesus said this :
    Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"


    where is God in luke 3:22 ?

    Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
    heaven sending His spirit in the shape of a dove...why you ask?
    So Jesus is not God ?

    Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
    lol...you trying to insert something more than punctuations marks

    punctuated by who?...cuz they not be in da originals...
    so you have nothing but a red herring.

    John the revelator is clear that when He comes He brings the reward with Him
    yup
    ...fluttering about as a spirit prior this is impoverishing that reward
    God is spirit & created us in his likeness
    Joh_4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

    ...how does it live unable to eat of the tree of life?
    begging the question ,you assume a spirit needs to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    sadduccees were indeed wrong about no resurrection...but hell not being developed in the Torah is a starting point...sadduccees were wrong again here for thinking who the woman was married to after being dead and raised mattered in the after life...and NOT because she was just a spirit
    Er, no, 'badly mistaken...' About what? One of us is reading scripture, the other isn't. Luke 20:36,38 Mark 12:27 Again, He said "badly" mistaken. You can argue with Him about that when you see Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    scripture with a hellping of tradition pagan no less
    Nope. You can argue this with Him as I said. I've simply quoted His words. You? You JUST need to read them. He said 'badly mistaken' to the Sadducees.
    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    but you do as you judge one preist saying she is sleeping as being catholic teaching...it is not despite the fact He said His friend Lazarus was sleeping...then clarified him as dead...NOT on Abraham’s bosom
    Thanks for using scriptures, they are the only thing that matters, not inane posturing or asserting. We can but try to prove our points. Where in this passage does 'dead' mean nonexistent? I don't believe you can stretch it.
    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    ]praise among men is desired
    Yeah, that's an 'ignorant cult' thing to say which mostly amounts to "I'm stupid so God favors me above you. I have to have some kind of delusional in with God because I didn't do well in school. Despite that being mostly my fault, I compensate by being delusional." Grades mean something and NOT some kind of retarded ploy to garner men's praise You are simply digging yourself in with special pleading. Mine is an observation, no proof, but as I said, Rutherford lied under oath with his hand on the Bible and Smith HAD to compensate for something, not having the intelligence to complete school. Try not to make your digs so transparent. They don't look like honest assessment, just ploys to somehow try to discredit your opponent. Such doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    so then..he was not teaching catholic doctrine
    Again, let it go. If it isn't Catholic, it isn't Catholic, though it is obviously so for some Catholics or it wouldn't have been taught. This part of the conversation is going nowhere. Drop it as exhausted (my suggestion, it is fruitless). It doesn't matter 'who' believes in soul-sleep at such a point and we are getting lost in details. Just say "I don't believe it applies to Catholics" and we can move along. There is no reason to argue for the purpose of just winning an argument that doesn't matter much. I yet think it part of Catholic doctrine, no big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Wuuuh? Wasn’t talking about the early protestant church...but first century church which rome called a superstitious jewish cult...possibly because they looked and behaved thusly...not running around about hell and such...
    It didn't have the derogatory carried with it at that point. Accurate comparisons are important. No 'cult' today has the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    lost track of which passage you are referring


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    you mean like something under the altar representing those deserving vindication?
    No, metaphor means something 'is' the other thing. Thus, when the Lord Jesus Christ is called the "Lamb of God" it is literal, not that the Lord was a young sheep, but that He was a literal sacrifice to redeem man. With metaphors, it is imperative to know what 'is' exact. Metaphors are always literal.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    ]and before that it says he was in a vision...now the seals represent various time lines here and wiki has the fifth seal at:
    Where? Revelation 4:1? Revelation 9:17?

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Preterist view
    This is the cry for vindication by the Christian martyrs who were persecuted by the Jews after Christ’s death and leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in the year 70.[17] Both Ernest Renan and Volkmar, modern rationalist preterists, marked the year 64 as a significant year for Christian martyrdom.[11] The name “Jerusalem” became synonymous with the persecution of the righteous. But God avenged the deaths of the righteous by allowing the Romans to conquer the “holy city” as retaliation for the Jews handing Jesus over to Pilate.[17]

    Historicist view
    This seal occurred during the rule of martyred Christians who were persecuted by Emperor Diocletian (284-303). This was the tenth period of the persecution of Christianity and the most severe, because of being on a “worldwide” scale. Then with Constantine’s rise to power, Christianity became legalized (313) and the church was thereby vindicated.[17]

    Futurist view
    This judgment encompasses Christians who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the Great Tribulation by not bowing down to the Antichrist and by not submitting to the global economic system that forces all people on the earth to receive the mark of the beast. Their deaths place them in good company of the righteous throughout the ages.[17]

    Idealist view
    The fifth seal is a reminder that, though the Christ inaugurated the "Kingdom of God" through the preaching of the gospels, God’s people suffer during the tribulation that starts from the first coming of Christ to the second coming of Christ. This is known as the end-time tribulation that stretches across world history. Thus the “kingdom of God” is in history, but “not yet” triumphant.[17]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_seals

    So was John present literally through each and every one of the seals time frames?
    Obvious. Obviously future not happened. Obviously in heaven too.

    Those souls under the altar were from which time frame just the fifth?
    'Presently' so it doesn't matter which view you adhere to, preterist, historical, or else "around the throne" debunks they were/are sleeping.

    I mean if they are literal souls crying out not forgiveness but for vengeance...despite it being dust + spirit = soul
    Says more about 'you' than the passage considered, doesn't it? It is 'my view' instead. That is never going to convince anyone, Clefty.



    nope. Absent the body and to be with Him is NOT absent IS with Him
    It is what it says so you are arguing with scripture, not me. It says it.



    ha
    Still welcome.






    Still waiting to see...hell means exactly that His sacrifice was not enough but that eternally burning bodies is necessary to satisfy
    Again, metaphor doesn't work this way. It means something has exactly the same feature that another has. The Lord Jesus Christ and 'lamb' both mean sacrifice, not fleece. If you miss the exact comparison, you are misreading and misunderstanding language and scripture.
    Even Satan believes He is the Son...and?
    You are supporting what I said, not detracting from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Man is only mortal.
    Genesis 3:22-24 Romans 5:12; 6:23
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Just want to point out...

    "Adam was created mortal ... and [to] live forever" is a contradictory statement. "Mortal" means "subject to death"...
    take it up with our creator...cars are made to drive...need da fuel no?

    Gen 3: 22...”And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    Man has become like one of Us...in knowing good and evil...NOT in attaining immortality

    A more careful reading of it reveals that the man was prevented from living forever by reaching out his hand and taking from the tree of life...

    So denied access from the tree of life man died...



    Anyways... How, then, is it possible, even for God, to destroy something that He Himself designed to exist forever?
    by deny the thing created the other thing needed for it to live forever...

    I assert that not even God can destroy that which is designed to exist for eternity.
    lol...well He done did it...designed to exist for eternity man was denied what his design needed to do so...so he died


    Let me put it this way: Let's say you had the ability to create things, and you wanted to make something and have it exist for eternity, would you not design it in such a way that it could not be destroyed? Does that make sense? If you design something so that it lasts for eternity, it's not going to be able to be destroyed by any amount of energy or exertion, because it would take more than an eternity's worth of energy or exertion to destroy it.
    Like one of us is not exactly...in our image is not exactly...only ONE is IMMORTAL no beginning and no end...
    Last edited by clefty; June 10th, 2018 at 08:29 AM.

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