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Thread: Jesus taught existence after death

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Question: why does Moses write,

    And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. - Genesis 35:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    You could say it's just a figure of speech, but then I'd have to ask you what it means. And if you said, it meant she was dying, I'd ask you why would Moses use a figure of speech and then immediately say "for she died".

    Everything you've just said about how there's no word "Hell" in the Bible, but that other words are used to describe the "grave" or "a fiery place," doesn't that ring a bell in your head that says, "Hey, that sounds like Hell"?

    Everything in the Bible points to an existence after death, either with or without God. God placed eternity in our hearts. He died to save us from what? From death. Annihilation doesn't fit what the Bible says, no matter how hard you try to fit it in there.
    Serpent’s Doctrine
    Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.
    A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.
    Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.

    Ψυχην / soul, psyche, Spirit
    Soul / ψυχή
    Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση
    Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή


    Proverbs 2:18
    For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.
    In its second use Rephaim designates "shades" or "spirits"



    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna. )


    Word Parsed:
    (נַפְשָׁהּ
    Parts of Speech: Noun M/F Sing.
    Root:
    רוּחַ
    Strong's Number: H7305, H7307, H7308
    Infinitive Definition: 1. space
    a. space, interval
    b. respite, relief 1. wind, breath, mind,
    spirit
    a. breath
    b. wind...
    1. spirit, wind
    a. wind
    b. spirit 1. of man 2. seat
    of the...

    The word "FIRE" is often used as a parable.
    Last edited by CherubRam; June 9th, 2018 at 04:33 PM.

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    Since you're just ignoring what I wrote, allow me to do the same...
    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Serpent’s Doctrine
    Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.
    A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.
    Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.

    Ψυχην / soul, psyche, Spirit
    Soul / ψυχή
    Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση
    Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή


    Proverbs 2:18
    For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna. )


    Word Parsed:
    (נַפְשָׁהּ
    Parts of Speech: Noun M/F Sing.
    Root:
    רוּחַ
    Strong's Number: H7305, H7307, H7308
    Infinitive Definition: 1. space
    a. space, interval
    b. respite, relief 1. wind, breath, mind,
    spirit
    a. breath
    b. wind...
    1. spirit, wind
    a. wind
    b. spirit 1. of man 2. seat
    of the...

    The word "FIRE" is often used as a parable.
    Cherub:

    Will believers live with God for eternity?

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to JudgeRightly For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (June 9th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Since you're just ignoring what I wrote, allow me to do the same...Cherub:

    Will believers live with God for eternity?
    The Elect of God will live with Him for a eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    The Elect of God will live with Him for a eternity.
    So then, let's follow that logically, but first I need to ask, You are a Calvinist, is that correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Since you're just ignoring what I wrote, allow me to do the same...Cherub:
    I did answer your question.

    And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. - Genesis 35:18

    The correct translation is spirit, not soul; although the word soul could be used for the same Hebrew word.

    Word Parsed:
    (נַפְשָׁהּ
    Parts of Speech: Noun M/F Sing.
    Root:
    רוּחַ
    Strong's Number: H7305, H7307, H7308
    Infinitive Definition: 1. space
    a. space, interval
    b. respite, relief 1. wind, breath, mind,
    spirit
    a. breath
    b. wind...
    1. spirit, wind
    a. wind
    b. spirit 1. of man 2. seat
    of the...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    The Elect of God will live with Him for a eternity.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So then, let's follow that logically, but first I need to ask, You are a Calvinist, is that correct?
    Scratch that, Let me just ask you this:

    By "Elect of God," do you mean Israel? Because I've never heard Paul or anyone in the Bible call Christians "the Elect" or "God's Elect".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Scratch that, Let me just ask you this:

    By "Elect of God," do you mean Israel? Because I've never heard Paul or anyone in the Bible call Christians "the Elect" or "God's Elect".
    I do not follow anyone by the name of Calvin.


    Matthew 24:22
    "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Matthew 24:31
    And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    Mark 13:20
    “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

    Mark 13:22
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Mark 13:27
    And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    Romans 11:7
    What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

    Romans 11:28
    As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,...

    1 Timothy 5:21
    I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect (angels / messengers), to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

    2 Timothy 2:10
    Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

    Titus 1:1
    Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

    1 Peter 1:1
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,...


    2 Peter 1:10
    Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    I do not follow anyone by the name of Calvin.


    Matthew 24:22
    "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Matthew 24:31
    And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    Mark 13:20
    “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

    Mark 13:22
    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Mark 13:27
    And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    Romans 11:7
    What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

    Romans 11:28
    As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,...

    1 Timothy 5:21
    I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect (angels / messengers), to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

    2 Timothy 2:10
    Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

    Titus 1:1
    Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

    1 Peter 1:1
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,...


    2 Peter 1:10
    Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,...
    I think in posting all those verses, you forgot to answer my question.

    Here it is again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    By "Elect of God," do you mean Israel? Because I've never heard Paul or anyone in the Bible call Christians "the Elect" or "God's Elect".
    And my follow-up: If by "elect" you mean Israel, Then what about Christians, who are not Israel? Will they be annihilated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    And the Lord Jesus Christ corrected those Sadducees as wrong so you can see where I stand and am going with that. Mark 12:27 "You are badly mistaken."
    sadduccees were indeed wrong about no resurrection...but hell not being developed in the Torah is a starting point...sadduccees were wrong again here for thinking who the woman was married to after being dead and raised mattered in the after life...and NOT because she was just a spirit



    Of course not, we disagree. Sharing scriptures and what they say is all we've got between us.
    scripture with a hellping of tradition pagan no less




    No problem.
    but you do as you judge one preist saying she is sleeping as being catholic teaching...it is not despite the fact He said His friend Lazarus was sleeping...then clarified him as dead...NOT on Abraham’s bosom

    Grades and ability show.
    praise among men is desired


    Him.
    so then..he was not teaching catholic doctrine


    Yet Martin Luther was no academic slouch. You don't get to compare JW's or Mormons to him. Rutherford lied in court. Smith had a third grade education. Pay attention to what is different. What is coincidental has little bearing on this conversation. Ignorant cultists say similar to me all the time. Don't be ignorant.
    Wuuuh? Wasn’t talking about the early protestant church...but first century church which rome called a superstitious jewish cult...possibly because they looked and behaved thusly...not running around about hell and such...



    Right, you said 'figurative' and I said 'literal.' The Lord Jesus Christ (next verse) LITERALLY redeemed us. It isn't figurative. Not anywhere else in the passage so neither your figurative interpretation either. "Figurative" doesn't fit the passage at all.
    lost track of which passage you are referring

    [quoteIncorrect and please forgive the English lesson, it is necessary: Metaphor. Do you know what that is? [/quote] you mean like something under the altar representing those deserving vindication?

    Revelation 12:1 'sign.' It tells you before you read it, it a sign.
    and before that it says he was in a vision...now the seals represent various time lines here and wiki has the fifth seal at:

    Preterist view
    This is the cry for vindication by the Christian martyrs who were persecuted by the Jews after Christ’s death and leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in the year 70.[17] Both Ernest Renan and Volkmar, modern rationalist preterists, marked the year 64 as a significant year for Christian martyrdom.[11] The name “Jerusalem” became synonymous with the persecution of the righteous. But God avenged the deaths of the righteous by allowing the Romans to conquer the “holy city” as retaliation for the Jews handing Jesus over to Pilate.[17]

    Historicist view
    This seal occurred during the rule of martyred Christians who were persecuted by Emperor Diocletian (284-303). This was the tenth period of the persecution of Christianity and the most severe, because of being on a “worldwide” scale. Then with Constantine’s rise to power, Christianity became legalized (313) and the church was thereby vindicated.[17]

    Futurist view
    This judgment encompasses Christians who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the Great Tribulation by not bowing down to the Antichrist and by not submitting to the global economic system that forces all people on the earth to receive the mark of the beast. Their deaths place them in good company of the righteous throughout the ages.[17]

    Idealist view
    The fifth seal is a reminder that, though the Christ inaugurated the "Kingdom of God" through the preaching of the gospels, God’s people suffer during the tribulation that starts from the first coming of Christ to the second coming of Christ. This is known as the end-time tribulation that stretches across world history. Thus the “kingdom of God” is in history, but “not yet” triumphant.[17]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_seals

    So was John present literally through each and every one of the seals time frames?

    Those souls under the altar were from which time frame just the fifth?

    I mean if they are literal souls crying out not forgiveness but for vengeance...despite it being dust + spirit = soul



    Incorrect. It says exactly that.
    nope. Absent the body and to be with Him is NOT absent IS with Him

    Yes you were.
    nope


    Yes you did.
    nope

    You are welcome.
    ha






    "If" this is true, mine is better substantiated by scripture.
    Still waiting to see...hell means exactly that His sacrifice was not enough but that eternally burning bodies is necessary to satisfy

    Yours certainly is idolatry by the cults who don't believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, God, and Savior. You realize those who do not esteem Him are the ones who hold this view of yours, don't you? There is a directly connected reason for that. One leads to the other.
    Even Satan believes He is the Son...and?


    It doesn't matter what you 'imagine' spirits are doing while alive. Metaphors are literal. There is a literal comparison between Christ and a solid rock. 'If' you don't know what a metaphor is, it is not figurative at all. It is a literal comparison of a literal trait. Another instance is "Lamb of God." The comparison is that the Lord Jesus Christ was the literal sacrifice for our sins. Metaphors are always dealing with a comparison of literal traits &/or actions.
    Man is only mortal.
    Last edited by clefty; June 9th, 2018 at 06:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So then, let's follow that logically, but first I need to ask, You are a Calvinist, is that correct?
    Those that are in the Book of Life have access to the Tree of Life...thus live forever...

    Those NOT in the Book of Life have NO access to the tree of Life...thus gone

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Those that are in the Book of Life have access to the Tree of Life...thus live forever...

    Those NOT in the Book of Life have NO access to the tree of Life...thus gone
    Is the tree of life for the soul/spirit? or just for the restoration of the new bodies we receive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Is the tree of life for the soul/spirit? or just for the restoration of the new bodies we receive?
    After He was risen He proved to them He was NOT a spirit by eating...and letting them touch Him...

    How could a soul/spirit actuallly eat you know bite chew swallow digest the fruit of the tree of life?

    It remains man was created mortal and dependent on the tree of life...

    Forbidden from it when disobedient so as NOT TO TAKE AND EAT AND LIVE FOREVER..

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I think in posting all those verses, you forgot to answer my question.

    Here it is again.



    And my follow-up: If by "elect" you mean Israel, Then what about Christians, who are not Israel? Will they be annihilated?
    In some of those verses the Gentiles are being addressed as the Elect. Besides that, Christians are also Israel.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    After He was risen He proved to them He was NOT a spirit by eating...and letting them touch Him...

    How could a soul/spirit actuallly eat you know bite chew swallow digest the fruit of the tree of life?

    It remains man was created mortal and dependent on the tree of life...

    Forbidden from it when disobedient so as NOT TO TAKE AND EAT AND LIVE FOREVER..
    Obviously, a soul without a physical body wouldn't be able to interact with a physical object.

    I'm asking if the fruit (when used) is for the restoration of the soul/spirit, to regenerate it/them, or if it's for the restoration of the body, to regenerate it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    In some of those verses the Gentiles are being addressed as the Elect. Besides that, Christians are also Israel.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
    Here's a hint: It's not talking about Christians there. As you so nicely bolded, "the children of the promise" is referring not to Christians (otherwise Paul would have used "we" or "us" instead of "they"), it's referring to those who entered the promise (God's promise to Israel) and became Israel. Read what Paul had just said:

    "On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be..." what? "RECKONED!'"

    "Through Isaac" is referring to Jesus Christ, who came to His own to reckon them.

    "Your offspring" is referring to Israel, being God's chosen nation (and even Gentiles could become part of that nation by becoming proselytes).

    Paul, in Romans 9:6-8 is not talking about Christians. He's talking about proselyte Jews, and by extension believers who entered into the promise in the one year before God cut off Israel in Acts 9.

    Christians are not Israel, though I do see how you've confused yourself into thinking that they are.

    Getting back on track, now that that issue is all cleared up...

    Cherub, again I ask, now that you know that Israel includes people who are not of the literal bloodline of Abraham, and that Christians are not Israel, who is also known the "Elect Lady":

    Will Israel alone exist for all eternity, and all other humans be annihilated? Or will Christians, who are NOT Israel (aka God's Elect) also exist forever with God?

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