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Thread: Jesus taught existence after death

  1. #61
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Annihilationism is taught in the bible

    Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished, rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell. Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life by God.




    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
    God never said they could not examine the fruit.

    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


    The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell.
    Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.





    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

    Deuteronomy 32:39
    "See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

    1 Samuel 2:6
    "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

    Proverbs 2:18
    For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.

    Proverbs 8:36
    But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."

    Proverbs 11:19
    The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

    Proverbs 16:25
    There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

    Proverbs 23:14
    Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

    Psalm 56:13
    For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.

    Psalm 118:18
    The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.

    Hosea 13:14
    "I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?

    Ezekiel 33:11
    Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

    Ezekiel 18:32
    I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

    Ezekiel 18:23
    I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    Matthew 16:28
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    Mark 9:1
    And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."

    Luke 9:27
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."

    John 5:24
    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    Hebrews 5:7
    During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

    Hebrews 6:1
    Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,…

    James 5:20
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

    Revelation 1:18
    I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Grave).

    Revelation 6:8
    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades (Grave) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    Revelation 20:13
    The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.



    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


    Isaiah 26:14
    They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.


    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna. )

    A soul consist of both body and spirit.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

    Job 27:8
    For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?




    The Serpent's doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell, and that God is a liar, and that people will not surly die.
    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


    Serpent’s Doctrine
    Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.
    A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.
    Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.

    Ψυχην / soul, psyche, Spirit
    Soul / ψυχή
    Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση
    Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή

    Gehenna / A place of destruction. In a archaeological dig, no evidence of continual burning of trash was found. However, potsherds were found; a dump for broken clay pots.



    The Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom." This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.


    2 Kings 23:10
    He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Chronicles 28:3
    He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    2 Chronicles 33:6
    He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Nehemiah 11:30
    Zanoah, Adullam and their villages, in Lachish and its fields, and in Azekah and its settlements. So they were living all the way from Beersheba to the Valley of Hinnom.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 7:31
    They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 7:32
    So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 19:2
    and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 19:6
    So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Jeremiah 32:35
    They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations




  2. #62
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Our scriptures say that people will die, but the serpent says that is not true, that we will not truly die. So therefore, the SERPENTS DOCTRINE is that God is a liar. It is a parable to reveal what the serpent seed will teach. So I ask you, is there a Hell with LIVING BEINGS in it?
    I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

    22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
    The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

    25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

    27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

    Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

    Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
    Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously, the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

    Luke 20:16
    "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
    The word Hades replaced the word grave when translated.

    Revelation 21
    The New Jerusalem
    1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
    6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Clearly. His joyous desire is to be with Him.
    clearly that is all of our joyous desire...to be with Him...but Paul elsewhere is clear enough on how we will be when we finally are with Him...and it is not fluttering about like spirits...

    There is no mention of soul slumber NOR is it his focus whatsoever.
    there does not have to be a mention of it for it to be understood... sadduccees didnt believe in the resurrection at all because it is not mentioned in the Torah...but Paul a Pharisee taught of One resurrected BODILY and not as a spirit fluttering about...it was the main draw of gentiles crowding synagogues on Sabbaths to hear about this One risen BODILY from the dead and not as a spirit fluttering about in the afterlife...

    In Corinthians, he confidently echos the same: 2 Corinthians 5:8
    asked and answered...

    But again...yes we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord...

    No where does Paul teach what you wish:

    to be away from the body = at home with the Lord...

    There is a critical step between the two...between being alive here on earth and with Him...and Paul clarifies we will be clothed in our heavenly buildings and able to eat of the tree of life, pet the lion, hug and kiss each other and touch His nail scarred hands...spirits fluttering about can NOT do that...



    Revelation 6:9
    You can believe as you like,
    no we are not allowed to do that...we are to believe as scripture teaches...not that which man would like for his comfort

    and you are not alone but I don't think you can argue too strenuously.
    no need to argue strenuously...

    It does appear, from scripture, the Apostle is with the Lord presently.
    many people also strenuously argue that because Paul is alive we are to pray to him as our advocate and make idols of him to help focus those prayers...

    Some folks also then believe the construct of hell and purgatory and the indulgence of paying for relief...

    And so it goes...

    Whatever your disagreement, it cannot be overtly countered well.
    again your opinion only reveals what I must attempt to further clarify...

    I've seen the soul-sleep first from a Catholic priest, so you are nowise alone in disagreement, but I just don't see it as tenable in scripture as the other.
    that is odd and not catholic teaching...you not seeing it is

    Generally, Protestants and even no few Catholics believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord 1 John 3:2
    this is not a popularity contest...


    The way remains narrow...for that reason

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    In English usage the word "Hades" first appears around 1600, as a term used to explain the article in the Apostles Creed, "He descended into hell", where the place of waiting (the place of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) into which Jesus is there affirmed to have gone after the Crucifixion needed to be distinguished from what had come to be more usually called "hell", i.e. the place or state of those finally damned. The word hell was not originally in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic text as the so called biased translators have tried to establish it as scripture; but they were not good enough to cover up the reality of what God is saying. The source of this word hell and the concept of eternal torture is not Christian, but Pagan. You can find it in Babylon, in Greece, and especially Rome. But if you dig a little bit deeper you will see that it is bad translations that have infected this doctrine of Damnation in scriptures. As a matter of fact, scripture teaches the opposite. The introduction of the word Hell is more than a mistranslation, it a premeditated and deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word.


    Hell. Germanic origin: Pagan Myth. The word was used to transfer the Pagan concept to Christian theology. For the Judaic-Christian origin of the concept, see Gehenna.
    Hell
    Old English hel, hell, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hel and German Hölle, from an Indo-European root meaning ‘to cover, conceal, or hide.
    Hell was taught in Greek philosophy by Plato between 427-347 BC.

    Hell
    Also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell").

    The English word may be in part from the Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). Hell is a pagan concept and word adapted to Christianity.

    Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

    Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament .
    Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδης), Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

    In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

    Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.

    She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.

    Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.

    Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.
    That His use of a popular folk tale is understandable...as if just being poor gets you to Abraham’s bosom

    https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.c...the-afterlife/

    But His use of the popular folk tale was to teach about forgiveness NOT a teaching of the afterlife...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    [FONT="]Annihilationism is taught in the bible [/FONT][FONT="]

    Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished, rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell. Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life by God.




    [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 2:17[/FONT][FONT="]
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

    [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 3:3[/FONT][FONT="]
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
    God never said they could not examine the fruit.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 3:4[/FONT][FONT="]
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. [/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell.
    Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.





    [/FONT][FONT="]Deuteronomy 30:15[/FONT][FONT="]
    See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Deuteronomy 32:39[/FONT][FONT="]
    "See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

    [/FONT][FONT="]1 Samuel 2:6[/FONT][FONT="]
    "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Proverbs 2:18[/FONT][FONT="]
    For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Proverbs 8:36[/FONT][FONT="]
    But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."

    [/FONT][FONT="]Proverbs 11:19[/FONT][FONT="]
    The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Proverbs 16:25[/FONT][FONT="]
    There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Proverbs 23:14[/FONT][FONT="]
    Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Psalm 56:13[/FONT][FONT="]
    For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Psalm 118:18[/FONT][FONT="]
    The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Hosea 13:14[/FONT][FONT="]
    "I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?

    [/FONT][FONT="]Ezekiel 33:11[/FONT][FONT="]
    Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

    [/FONT][FONT="]Ezekiel 18:32[/FONT][FONT="]
    I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

    [/FONT][FONT="]Ezekiel 18:23[/FONT][FONT="]
    I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    [/FONT][FONT="]Matthew 16:28[/FONT][FONT="]
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    [/FONT][FONT="]Mark 9:1[/FONT][FONT="]
    And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."

    [/FONT][FONT="]Luke 9:27[/FONT][FONT="]
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."

    [/FONT][FONT="]John 5:24[/FONT][FONT="]
    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Hebrews 5:7[/FONT][FONT="]
    During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Hebrews 6:1[/FONT][FONT="]
    Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,…

    [/FONT][FONT="]James 5:20[/FONT][FONT="]
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Revelation 1:18[/FONT][FONT="]
    I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Grave).

    [/FONT][FONT="]Revelation 6:8[/FONT][FONT="]
    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades (Grave) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Revelation 20:13[/FONT][FONT="]
    The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Revelation 20:14[/FONT][FONT="]
    Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT][FONT="]Genesis 18:25[/FONT][FONT="]
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Isaiah 26:14[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.[/FONT][FONT="] You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.[/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT][FONT="]Matthew 10:28[/FONT][FONT="]
    And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna. )

    A soul consist of both body and spirit.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Ecclesiastes 9:5[/FONT][FONT="]
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

    [/FONT][FONT="]Job 27:8[/FONT][FONT="]
    For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?[/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]The Serpent's doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell, and that God is a liar, and that people will not surly die.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Genesis 3:4[/FONT][FONT="]
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.[/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Serpent’s Doctrine[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.[/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Ψυχην[/FONT][FONT="] / soul, psyche, Spirit[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Soul / [/FONT][FONT="]ψυχή[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]Psyche / [/FONT][FONT="]ψυχή[/FONT][FONT="], ψυχοσύνθεση[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]Spirit / [/FONT][FONT="]πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Gehenna / A place of destruction. In a archaeological dig, no evidence of continual burning of trash was found. However, potsherds were found; a dump for broken clay pots.[/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]The Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom." This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]2 Kings 23:10[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]2 Chronicles 28:3[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]2 Chronicles 33:6[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Nehemiah 11:30[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]Zanoah, Adullam and their villages, in Lachish and its fields, and in Azekah and its settlements. So they were living all the way from Beersheba to the Valley of Hinnom.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Jeremiah 7:31[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Jeremiah 7:32[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Jeremiah 19:2[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Jeremiah 19:6[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="]Jeremiah 32:35[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
    [FONT="]They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]In Context[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Full Chapter[/FONT][FONT="] | [/FONT][FONT="]Other Translations[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    [FONT="] [/FONT]
    Yes people assume man was created immortal when that is not the case...

    Man was created dependent on the tree of life to eat and live...

    Gen 3:22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden dto till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    And even in Heaven in our new bodies we will remain mortal and dependent on the tree of life...

    There is only One Who is IMMORTAL...

    As if those in hell would have access to the tree of life...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Our scriptures say that people will die, but the serpent says that is not true, that we will not truly die. So therefore, the SERPENTS DOCTRINE is that God is a liar. It is a parable to reveal what the serpent seed will teach. So I ask you, is there a Hell with LIVING BEINGS in it?
    I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

    22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
    The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

    25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

    27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

    Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

    Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
    Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously, the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

    Luke 20:16
    "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
    The word Hades replaced the word grave when translated.

    Revelation 21
    The New Jerusalem
    1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
    6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
    " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


    As if Abraham would teach this...poor Abraham proved wrong over and over again as even He raised the dead and many believed...

    This “teaching of Abraham” counters the very gospel message...that One is raised from the dead...be convinced

    Silly Marxist folk tale...turned on its head by the Master
    Last edited by clefty; June 8th, 2018 at 08:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    clearly that is all of our joyous desire...to be with Him...but Paul elsewhere is clear enough on how we will be when we finally are with Him...and it is not fluttering about like spirits...
    Nor playing harps on clouds, if 'fluttering' is the operative word.
    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    there does not have to be a mention of it for it to be understood... sadduccees didnt believe in the resurrection at all because it is not mentioned in the Torah...but Paul a Pharisee taught of One resurrected BODILY and not as a spirit fluttering about...it was the main draw of gentiles crowding synagogues on Sabbaths to hear about this One risen BODILY from the dead and not as a spirit fluttering about in the afterlife...

    asked and answered...

    But again...yes we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord...

    No where does Paul teach what you wish:
    Consider the Revelation 6:9-11 passage again. Consider Hebrews 12:1 etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    to be away from the body = at home with the Lord...
    ???
    You can certainly disagree. I'm not the watcher over your doctrine, but did you happen to read: 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23

    Are you reading the scriptures with me?


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    There is a critical step between the two...between being alive here on earth and with Him...and Paul clarifies we will be clothed in our heavenly buildings and able to eat of the tree of life, pet the lion, hug and kiss each other and touch His nail scarred hands...spirits fluttering about can NOT do that...
    Neither here nor there as far as I apprehend this. The saints around the throne, for example, are not fluttering or flittering.
    Can you reconcile the scriptures in a meaningful way? I think that's the meaningful discussion. I'm not about to convince you, nor you I. What we can do, meaningfully, is give scriptures and reconcile them meaningfully that we might appreciate the other's perspective. I don't believe we can argue this out.


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    no we are not allowed to do that...we are to believe as scripture teaches...not that which man would like for his comfort

    no need to argue strenuously...
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    many people also strenuously argue that because Paul is alive we are to pray to him as our advocate and make idols of him to help focus those prayers...

    Some folks also then believe the construct of hell and purgatory and the indulgence of paying for relief...
    Odd when you think about it, Catholics believe they are dead in the ground, yet believe saints passed on, can hear and intercede for them. It is inconsistent, agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    And so it goes...

    again your opinion only reveals what I must attempt to further clarify...

    that is odd and not catholic teaching...you not seeing it is

    this is not a popularity contest...
    "If' our position is tenable, others should be able to see it. It is most important that our position is 1) tenable (adheres to scriptures well) and 2) does no damage to other scripture truths and doctrines.

    For me, soul-sleep does a bit of damage to some truths of scripture, including being a new creation in Christ Jesus, but I don't see it as an issue that can't remain at odds within orthodoxy.


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    The way remains narrow...for that reason
    On essential doctrines, you are correct. Whether we are in the ground or with the Lord, may not be one of those essential issues. I think it better, in other words, to discuss the difference here as well as the scriptures that steer these views. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    In Regards to "The Rich Man and Lazarus." Note: Both, Abraham and King David were rich. The story is a complete fabrication. It most certainly is not a parable from Christ. Christ would not have introduced the Pagan belief into Christianity.

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    The word "Hell" does not occur anywhere in the original scriptures. The Hebrew word "Sheol" always means "Grave" and nothing else.

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    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


    Those who do not allow the teaching of Annihilationism, or the speaking against the Pagan belief in Hell, they are actually supporting the Serpent against God.


    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    This message should be spread throughout Christianity in support of our Holy Father and Christ. Those who are opposed to this message are supporting the Serpents cause.

    Michael.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Nor playing harps on clouds,
    right...haha not sure spirit fingers could pluck physical strings nor a physical cloud could hold either player or harp...

    if 'fluttering' is the operative word.
    I choose it as it reminds me of butterflies fluttering about just as helpless and unable to eat of the tree of life or pet a lion or slide down a giraffe neck or hug and kiss a loved one or the One with scarred hands...

    Consider the Revelation 6:9-11 passage again.
    sure but just as scholars debate whether the 7 churches are literal or figurative (I lean towards literal) these souls under the altar should also be in question (I lean towards figurative) I mean are there actually four horses up there? A literal dragon and beast? Does a woman stand on the moon the whole time?

    Consider Hebrews 12:1 etc.
    you appreciate poetic license of a reminder that chapter 11 listed faith warriors and these witnesses surround us...mind you they dont witness us our lives but bare testimony and witness of their own faith...

    ???
    You can certainly disagree. I'm not the watcher over your doctrine, but did you happen to read: 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23
    I did happen to read and answered my answer neither of these say what you wish it to say, which is:

    Being away from the physical body = being with Him.

    Nope Paul is quite clear on when we are with Him...after being changed and clothed in a twinkling even...

    Are you reading the scriptures with me?
    sure...all of Paul and his Master’s teachings...and example...

    Neither here nor there as far as I apprehend this. The saints around the throne, for example, are not fluttering or flittering.
    Can you reconcile the scriptures in a meaningful way? I think that's the meaningful discussion. I'm not about to convince you, nor you I. What we can do, meaningfully, is give scriptures and reconcile them meaningfully that we might appreciate the other's perspective. I don't believe we can argue this out.
    well might not convince you but hope others are reading and can contribute...that your answering at least says you still hold interest


    See above.
    ummm ok...but yours is still seeking comforting traditions of man rather than what scriptures teach


    Odd when you think about it, Catholics believe they are dead in the ground, yet believe saints passed on, can hear and intercede for them. It is inconsistent, agreed.
    now you are revealing further confusion...catholics do believe the body is dead and in the ground but as spirits passed on...in order to bring comfort and surety that others will hear and intercede for them because He might be busy or whatever...

    Not inconsistant at all...physical body is gone but spirit lives on...most christians not just catholics believe that...comforted by the idea they are in a better place enjoying stuff and up there looking down on us to encourage and support us here...

    "If' our position is tenable, others should be able to see it. It is most important that our position is 1) tenable (adheres to scriptures well) and 2) does no damage to other scripture truths and doctrines.
    ok

    For me, soul-sleep does a bit of damage to some truths of scripture, including being a new creation in Christ Jesus,
    soul sleep has nothing to do with being a new creation in christ jesus...that occurs when we are dead to selves and resurrected in him figuratively in the symbolic death of baptism...once baptized you are a new creation with Him working in you to do as He did and not as you did in your former self...you are a new creation now alive living as He did...or trying

    but I don't see it as an issue that can't remain at odds within orthodoxy.
    of course it will orthodoxy needs man’s traditions to maintain its orthodoxy...including images and prayers to the dead and long gone...



    On essential doctrines, you are correct. Whether we are in the ground or with the Lord, may not be one of those essential issues. I think it better, in other words, to discuss the difference here as well as the scriptures that steer these views. -Lon
    ummm ok...thanks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    right...haha not sure spirit fingers could pluck physical strings nor a physical cloud could hold either player or harp...

    I choose it as it reminds me of butterflies fluttering about just as helpless and unable to eat of the tree of life or pet a lion or slide down a giraffe neck or hug and kiss a loved one or the One with scarred hands...

    sure but just as scholars debate whether the 7 churches are literal or figurative (I lean towards literal) these souls under the altar should also be in question (I lean towards figurative) I mean are there actually four horses up there? A literal dragon and beast? Does a woman stand on the moon the whole time?

    you appreciate poetic license of a reminder that chapter 11 listed faith warriors and these witnesses surround us...mind you they dont witness us our lives but bare testimony and witness of their own faith...
    I do, but find 'poetic' unfitting scripturally with has gone before. It is reading 'into' the text, not from it, as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    I did happen to read and answered my answer neither of these say what you wish it to say, which is:

    Being away from the physical body = being with Him.

    Nope Paul is quite clear on when we are with Him...after being changed and clothed in a twinkling even...

    sure...all of Paul and his Master’s teachings...and example...

    well might not convince you but hope others are reading and can contribute...that your answering at least says you still hold interest


    ummm ok...but yours is still seeking comforting traditions of man rather than what scriptures teach
    No, not much at all. My scripture prowess is "well-read."


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    now you are revealing further confusion...catholics do believe the body is dead and in the ground but as spirits passed on...in order to bring comfort and surety that others will hear and intercede for them because He might be busy or whatever...
    No, not what the Priest said. He said 'our dear sister is asleep in the ground until the Lord Jesus raises her.' After a friendly fashion, you are too bold with your assertions that are wrong. It means you push too hard into areas you, yourself cannot be certain of, 'as if' you are certain. Here, for instance (and a bit further) you are wrong. It is better to handle truth without exaggerations, assertions, accusations, or other posturing. It shows, to me, as flimsy theology. It 'looks' like false vibrato because it is. Not sure if that offends, but it is meant as an encouragement. In a discussion, you'll get a LOT more headway especially when dealing with side issues of doctrine like this. I've seen posturing both sides, but it is all vibrato at that point (or rather mostly so).
    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Not inconsistant at all...physical body is gone but spirit lives on...most christians not just catholics believe that...comforted by the idea they are in a better place enjoying stuff and up there looking down on us to encourage and support us here...
    But that isn't soul-sleep, which was taught by the Catholic priest. Generally, I think the priest was confused perhaps, but I've seen it a time or two prior this as well. It is certainly truth that cults (JW, Christadelphian, Seventh Day Adventists etc. believe the soul sleeps).


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    soul sleep has nothing to do with being a new creation in christ jesus...
    I disagree. It has near everything to do with my contention against it. If any man 'is' in Christ, he/she 'is' a new creation... You can't argue the point. It 'is' scripture. You can certainly dismiss it, but to say this is 'tradition' instead of scripture is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    that occurs when we are dead to selves and resurrected in him figuratively in the symbolic death of baptism...once baptized you are a new creation with Him working in you to do as He did and not as you did in your former self...you are a new creation now alive living as He did...or trying
    That is sad, Clefty. if it is figurative, you are still an old man The scriptures, my friend, are literal, not figurative. 2 Corinthians 5:6 not figurative. 2 Corinthians 5:8 thus is not figurative. 2 Corinthians 5:16, indeed commands you to no longer think like this, in point of fact (not figurative) 2 Corinthians 5:17, then, MUST necessarily be actual, not figurative. 2 Corinthians 5:18 if NOT literal, but figurative as you suggest, then so is our redemption. You CANNOT put 'figurative' right smack in the middle of all these 'literal' things. Clefty, I have real reservations about your English diagramming prowess. You simply cannot (cannot) hold to this if you are consistently apt at language. This isn't possible. I don't mean to be forward, but this IS the difference between orthodox and cults. Cults don't tend to be the brightest people on the planet. God can save them, but despite themselves. This isn't a huge issue, but some of the others are salvific and I hurt for ignorant people.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    of course it will orthodoxy needs man’s traditions to maintain its orthodoxy...including images and prayers to the dead and long gone...
    Catholic (and Mormon) vs. Protestant. Orthodox and 'orthodox' are as different as "Catholic" and catholic.


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    ummm ok...thanks?
    This isn't an issue that is too separating. Language understanding is important, but getting this wrong is just 'getting this wrong.' I believe the opposing positions are not correct, and strongly, but I'm not resigned to fight to the death. I am, however, resigned to sharing scriptures and what they say as well as give as much clarity and support to them as they say it. I believe the Apostle Paul was/is incredibly clear. Acts 13:34-35
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I do, but find 'poetic' unfitting scripturally with has gone before. It is reading 'into' the text, not from it, as far as I'm concerned.
    let’s see Sadduccees didnt believe in a resurrection at all because the Torah didnt mention it...after life for the jew was only slowly developed over the centuries and only as it was assimilated from their neighbors...dead knowing nothing in the OT...a folk tale was used by Him to teach about forgiveness...and Paul is clear when we receive our bodies and prior nothing...yet poetic license in Hebrews 11 about the testimonies of prior faith warriors is inserting somethig? I think you insert a desire for conscious spirits fluttering about heaven and tormented in hell(as if spirits burn)


    No, not much at all. My scripture prowess is "well-read."
    not surprised you think so...



    No, not what the Priest said. He said 'our dear sister is asleep in the ground until the Lord Jesus raises her.'
    I dont judge Catholic teaching on the behavior of one priest...

    After a friendly fashion, you are too bold with your assertions that are wrong. It means you push too hard into areas you, yourself cannot be certain of, 'as if' you are certain. Here, for instance (and a bit further) you are wrong. It is better to handle truth without exaggerations, assertions, accusations, or other posturing. It shows, to me, as flimsy theology. It 'looks' like false vibrato because it is. Not sure if that offends, but it is meant as an encouragement. In a discussion, you'll get a LOT more headway especially when dealing with side issues of doctrine like this. I've seen posturing both sides, but it is all vibrato at that point (or rather mostly so).
    ok...ditto or something

    But that isn't soul-sleep, which was taught by the Catholic priest. Generally, I think the priest was confused perhaps, but I've seen it a time or two prior this as well.
    either he or you in your recall and retelling...

    It is certainly truth that cults (JW, Christadelphian, Seventh Day Adventists etc. believe the soul sleeps).
    cults eh?...yes the early church was called a superstitious jewish cult by Romanists...



    I disagree. It has near everything to do with my contention against it. If any man 'is' in Christ, he/she 'is' a new creation... You can't argue the point. It 'is' scripture. You can certainly dismiss it, but to say this is 'tradition' instead of scripture is false.
    you were claiming “soul sleep” did damage to other scripture which I merely reminded that being a new creature IN HIM was meant when one was ALIVE not dead or after being dead...

    That is sad, Clefty. if it is figurative, you are still an old man The scriptures, my friend, are literal, not figurative.
    some is...some isnt...He isnt bread nor is He a grape vine...or a actual door...or a path...please dont walk on Him...

    does a woman stand on the moon?

    2 Corinthians 5:6 not figurative. 2 Corinthians 5:8 thus is not figurative.
    didnt say it was...I said it doesnt say what you wish it said...which is once dead = with Him

    2 Corinthians 5:16, indeed commands you to no longer think like this, in point of fact (not figurative)
    ok...not thinking that...

    2 Corinthians 5:17, then, MUST necessarily be actual, not figurative.
    ok...

    2 Corinthians 5:18 if NOT literal, but figurative as you suggest, then so is our redemption. You CANNOT put 'figurative' right smack in the middle of all these 'literal' things.
    I don’t...we are reconciled and new creations currently...but not in heaven with HIM in our glorified bodies...

    Clefty, I have real reservations about your English diagramming prowess. You simply cannot (cannot) hold to this if you are consistently apt at language. This isn't possible. I don't mean to be forward, but this IS the difference between orthodox and cults. Cults don't tend to be the brightest people on the planet. God can save them, but despite themselves. This isn't a huge issue, but some of the others are salvific and I hurt for ignorant people.
    ...very generous of you really...


    Catholic (and Mormon) vs. Protestant. Orthodox and 'orthodox' are as different as "Catholic" and catholic.
    ok thanks...



    This isn't an issue that is too separating. Language understanding is important, but getting this wrong is just 'getting this wrong.' I believe the opposing positions are not correct, and strongly, but I'm not resigned to fight to the death. I am, however, resigned to sharing scriptures and what they say as well as give as much clarity and support to them as they say it.
    well one belief is portraying our Creator and Savior as insuffient and ungratified thus an idolatrous counterfeit...

    I believe the Apostle Paul was/is incredibly clear. Acts 13:34-35
    Yes he was...He was raised no more to return to corruption...no human has been Your Holy One...and all die and are corrupted to dust...

    Raised BODILY not as a spirit...He ate...was touched...certainly unlike it is claimed we will be fluttering about in heaven...unable to eat unable to touch...and waiting to return to this corrupted world to pick up new bodies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    let’s see Sadduccees didnt believe in a resurrection at all because the Torah didnt mention it...after life for the jew was only slowly developed over the centuries and only as it was assimilated from their neighbors...dead knowing nothing in the OT...a folk tale was used by Him to teach about forgiveness...and Paul is clear when we receive our bodies and prior nothing...yet poetic license in Hebrews 11 about the testimonies of prior faith warriors is inserting somethig? I think you insert a desire for conscious spirits fluttering about heaven and tormented in hell(as if spirits burn)
    And the Lord Jesus Christ corrected those Sadducees as wrong so you can see where I stand and am going with that. Mark 12:27 "You are badly mistaken."


    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    not surprised you think so...
    Of course not, we disagree. Sharing scriptures and what they say is all we've got between us.



    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    I dont judge Catholic teaching on the behavior of one priest...
    No problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    ok...ditto or something
    Grades and ability show.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    either he or you in your recall and retelling...
    Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    cults eh?...yes the early church was called a superstitious jewish cult by Romanists...
    Yet Martin Luther was no academic slouch. You don't get to compare JW's or Mormons to him. Rutherford lied in court. Smith had a third grade education. Pay attention to what is different. What is coincidental has little bearing on this conversation. Ignorant cultists say similar to me all the time. Don't be ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    you were claiming “soul sleep” did damage to other scripture which I merely reminded that being a new creature IN HIM was meant when one was ALIVE not dead or after being dead...
    Right, you said 'figurative' and I said 'literal.' The Lord Jesus Christ (next verse) LITERALLY redeemed us. It isn't figurative. Not anywhere else in the passage so neither your figurative interpretation either. "Figurative" doesn't fit the passage at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    some is...some isnt...He isn't bread nor is He a grape vine...or a actual door...or a path...please dont walk on Him...
    Incorrect and please forgive the English lesson, it is necessary: Metaphor. Do you know what that is?

    does a woman stand on the moon?
    Revelation 12:1 'sign.' It tells you before you read it, it a sign.


    didnt say it was...I said it doesnt say what you wish it said...which is once dead = with Him
    Incorrect. It says exactly that.
    ok...not thinking that...
    Yes you were.

    I don’t...we are reconciled and new creations currently...but not in heaven with HIM in our glorified bodies...
    Yes you did.
    ...very generous of you really...
    You are welcome.





    well one belief is portraying our Creator and Savior as insuffient and ungratified thus an idolatrous counterfeit...
    "If" this is true, mine is better substantiated by scripture. Yours certainly is idolatry by the cults who don't believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, God, and Savior. You realize those who do not esteem Him are the ones who hold this view of yours, don't you? There is a directly connected reason for that. One leads to the other.



    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Yes he was...He was raised no more to return to corruption...no human has been Your Holy One...and all die and are corrupted to dust...

    Raised BODILY not as a spirit...He ate...was touched...certainly unlike it is claimed we will be fluttering about in heaven...unable to eat unable to touch...and waiting to return to this corrupted world to pick up new bodies...
    It doesn't matter what you 'imagine' spirits are doing while alive. Metaphors are literal. There is a literal comparison between Christ and a solid rock. 'If' you don't know what a metaphor is, it is not figurative at all. It is a literal comparison of a literal trait. Another instance is "Lamb of God." The comparison is that the Lord Jesus Christ was the literal sacrifice for our sins. Metaphors are always dealing with a comparison of literal traits &/or actions.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    In Regards to "The Rich Man and Lazarus." Note: Both, Abraham and King David were rich. The story is a complete fabrication. It most certainly is not a parable from Christ. Christ would not have introduced the Pagan belief into Christianity.
    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    The word "Hell" does not occur anywhere in the original scriptures. The Hebrew word "Sheol" always means "Grave" and nothing else.
    Question: why does Moses write,

    And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. - Genesis 35:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

    You could say it's just a figure of speech, but then I'd have to ask you what it means. And if you said, it meant she was dying, I'd ask you why would Moses use a figure of speech and then immediately say "for she died".

    Everything you've just said about how there's no word "Hell" in the Bible, but that other words are used to describe the "grave" or "a fiery place," doesn't that ring a bell in your head that says, "Hey, that sounds like Hell"?

    Everything in the Bible points to an existence after death, either with or without God. God placed eternity in our hearts. He died to save us from what? From death. Annihilation doesn't fit what the Bible says, no matter how hard you try to fit it in there.

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