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Thread: Does a Jew need to prove that he is a Jew? Answer: No.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    I am not going to argue this with you in this gentleman's thread. God will save who he pleases. Thats all there is to it.
    Any advice coming from someone who worships Mary...I always take with a grain of salt...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Jesus is the Son of God. I do not see anything that I want to reject, nor do I have a reason to reject anything.
    The son of a human is human.

    The Son of God is God.

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    Idols. Well, thats a whole other topic.
    Lutherans are not Protestants and Catholics and Lutherans have had idols.

    I grew up Plymouth Brethren once I learned we were Brethren. Not Protestants and not a denomination, just brothers in Christ or brethren, Bible Church, Chapel, Fellowship. A Citizen of The United States of America. Plymouth Brethren in The United States of America. Plymouth, England. I have not been to England. I am now a Jew, of Israel. Israel and the United States of America. Not Canada or Mexico. I do not know if I have been to anywhere else in the Americas. I have never been to Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    The son of a human is human.

    The Son of God is God.
    No. Not so. I disagree. I do not believe that. That is not the case.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Lutheran are not Protestants and Catholics and Lutherans have had idols.

    I grew up Plymouth Brethren once I learned we were Brethren. Not Protestants and not a denomination, just brothers in Christ or brethren, Bible Church, Chapel, Fellowship. A Citizen of The United States of America. Plymouth Brethren in The United States of America. Plymouth, England. I have not been to England. I am now a Jew, of Israel. Israel and the United States of America. Not Canada or Mexico. I do not know if I have been to anywhere else in the Americas. I have never been to Israel.
    I'd be happy to discuss this issue with you. The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

    So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

    According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols. Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

    Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

    Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

    Now, here is some "official" theology on the subject:

    IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

    2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . " 66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works." 67 He is "the author of beauty." 68

    2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim. 69

    2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

    2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." 70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

    Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. 71

    66 Deut 4:15-16.
    67 Sir 43:27-28.
    68 Wis 13:3.
    69 Cf. Num 21:4-9; [I]Wis 16:5-14; [I]Jn 3:14-15; [I]Ex 25:10-22; [I]1 Kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26.
    70 St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45:PG 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67.
    71 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,81,3 ad 3.



    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Any advice coming from someone who worships Mary...I always take with a grain of salt...
    You're pathetically ignorant

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    I'd be happy to discuss this issue with you. The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

    So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

    According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols. Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

    Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

    Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

    Now, here is some "official" theology on the subject:

    IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

    2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . " 66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works." 67 He is "the author of beauty." 68

    2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim. 69

    2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

    2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." 70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

    Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. 71

    66 Deut 4:15-16.
    67 Sir 43:27-28.
    68 Wis 13:3.
    69 Cf. Num 21:4-9; [I]Wis 16:5-14; [I]Jn 3:14-15; [I]Ex 25:10-22; [I]1 Kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26.
    70 St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45:PG 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67.
    71 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,81,3 ad 3.
    Incorrect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Incorrect
    LOL! Thats it? After all that, just one word? Okay.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    LOL! Thats it? After all that, just one word? Okay.
    Bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Bye
    Hey, I was just out for friendly conversation. I told you, I have much deep respect for Judaism. I wasn't trying to argue.

    See ya'
    Last edited by CatholicCrusader; May 14th, 2018 at 06:11 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    Hey, I was just our for friendly conversation. I told you, I have much deep respect for Judaism. I wasn't trying to argue.

    See ya'
    Turn from your idols, and your statues?

    See ya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Turn from your idols, and your statues?

    See ya
    I am an art lover. Its all just beautiful art to me.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to CatholicCrusader For Your Post:

    glassjester (May 14th, 2018)

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    I am an art lover. Its all just beautiful art to me.
    Not good

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
    It seems like Hasidic Judaism is authentic Jewish practice to me...
    Interesting observation, considering that the movement started in the 18th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple7 View Post
    Any advice coming from someone who worships Mary...I always take with a grain of salt...
    Jesus is the King, and Mary the Queen Mother.
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to glassjester For Your Post:

    CatholicCrusader (May 14th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Not good
    Was it "not good" when images and figures of Cherubim were constructed on the Ark of the covenant and in the Temple?
    Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo

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