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Thread: In the twinkling of an eye

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    In the twinkling of an eye

    1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but....

    AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Surely thats not true

    EZEK.37
    [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

    Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

    [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel {the Kingdom} as promised in the Word.

    [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    One shepherd.

    [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

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    Quote Originally Posted by DansingWall View Post
    1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but....

    AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Surely thats not true

    EZEK.37
    [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

    Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

    [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel {the Kingdom} as promised in the Word.

    [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    One shepherd.

    [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom
    Hey friend,
    Nice job. Of course the bible does not teach a rapture. The rapture is just a other core belief of the Evangelicals that is not biblical, a man-made tradition. I bet most dont even know it was started by a man named John Darby. He got it from some woman who claimed she was shown this in a dream/vision. Ir is complete irony. The Evangelicals, who claim to be believers, love to believe things that are non-biblical and cannot be proven without twisting scripture, or are completely made up and flat out reject clear bible truth. They dont care what the bible says, they only care about what they want the bible to say.
    So, since you are bursting bubbles and teaching truth, you wont be suprised from the lack of response, or you'll just have a bunch tell you how wrong you are.
    I think that you dont undestand why people dont respond to bible truth. I can identify. When i started studying scripture for myself instead of simply repeating what the preachers said, i started seeing the lies the preachers were teaching. I started putting studies together, studies based on what scripture actually says. And i started trying to teach people. To my chagrin, most flat out rejected the teaching. I was confused. Because i was talking to people who said they belueved in what the bible taught, I showed what the bible taught, using the verses, and still, they would not believe. This bothered me for awhile until i did a study about how God opens or blinds eyes. I used to think that average people of normal intelligence would be able to use logic and understand the truth. But, as I did the study, it became very, very clear that it was strictly by the work of God/Holy Spirit that determines whether or not a person can see and believe the truth. In other words, it does not matter the person, the ability to reason, read and use logic, rather, if God opens the eyes of a sheep, they will believe. If God blinds the eyes, that person will never come to knowledge of the truth, regardless of how many verses you show, regardless of how well you present a subject.

    Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by DansingWall View Post
    1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but....

    AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    Surely thats not true

    EZEK.37
    [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

    Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

    [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel {the Kingdom} as promised in the Word.

    [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

    One shepherd.

    [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom
    Hi and I see 3 things , here , Ezek 37 context is Israel !!

    #2, In 1 Cor 4:1 we are assistants and managers of God's MYSTERIES and 1 Thess 4:13 and that includes 1 Cor 15:51-58 !!

    #3 , The other word you need to research is the word RAPTURE , as there is no such THE GREEK WORD !!

    #4 There is another THE GREEK WORD that describes the departure of the B O C and is found in 2 Thess 2:3

    and is THE GREEK word PAROUSIA !!

    Check the Greek text and see !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and I see 3 things , here , Ezek 37 context is Israel !!

    #2, In 1 Cor 4:1 we are assistants and managers of God's MYSTERIES and 1 Thess 4:13 and that includes 1 Cor 15:51-58 !!

    #3 , The other word you need to research is the word RAPTURE , as there is no such THE GREEK WORD !!

    #4 There is another THE GREEK WORD that describes the departure of the B O C and is found in 2 Thess 2:3

    and is THE GREEK word PAROUSIA !!

    Check the Greek text and see !!

    dan p


    The guy is as confused as those who confuse that aspect of the Mysteries of the Kingdom revealed to the Twelve but that they had been unable to discern, with the Body's Mystery hidden until Paul.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post

    #4 There is another THE GREEK WORD that describes the departure of the B O C and is found in 2 Thess 2:3

    and is THE GREEK word PAROUSIA !!

    Check the Greek text and see !!

    dan p
    2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}
    DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

    DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

    So you see the falling away { 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

    HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

    Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DansingWall View Post
    2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}
    DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

    DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

    So you see the falling away { 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

    HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

    Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law.
    The Rapture (prior to "the wrath to come" the balance of the chapter goes into) is in verse 1.

    The balance of the chapter deals with things culminating in "the wrath to come" after the Rapture.

    The Thessalonians had been led to believe the were already living in the day of Christ in His Wrath.

    This here...

    Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

    That there takes place within 2 Thess. 2:8's "the brightness of his coming."

    Verse one in the following is the Rapture prior to all that...

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    The falling away, then, partly refers to what you posted (followed by Christ's return to Israel).

    In other words, Israel is in view.

    But said falling away also refers to the cutting off of the Gentiles as described in the following...

    Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Other than verse one, 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to a return to the Prophetic aspect of Scripture: that which was Prophesied concerning Israel and the Gentiles.

    Peter touches on it in the following (for that had been where the world had been headed, when God temporarily interrupted all that).

    This here...

    Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

    God's finally turning back to "finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth" Rom. 9:28, being this...

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    You finally got something partly right.



    Rom. 5: 6-8.

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    Ive always heard from the Rapturist that they are the Bride. Who is the Bride according to scripture?

    JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

    Israel is the bride

    JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

    Israel the bride

    JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

    Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

    LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

    Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

    REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

    Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DansingWall View Post
    2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}
    DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

    DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

    So you see the falling away { 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

    HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

    Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law.


    Hi and where the word " FALLING AWAY " is found is in Acts 21:21 and it is FORSAKE / APOSTASIA and it is the only place that they " FALL AWAY " from the teaching of Moses !!

    In 2 Thess 2:3 the same Greek word is used APOSTASIA and here it means a DEPARTURE , because they are not " FALLING AWAY " like in Acts 21:21 !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and where the word " FALLING AWAY " is found is in Acts 21:21 and it is FORSAKE / APOSTASIA and it is the only place that they " FALL AWAY " from the teaching of Moses !!

    In 2 Thess 2:3 the same Greek word is used APOSTASIA and here it means a DEPARTURE , because they are not " FALLING AWAY " like in Acts 21:21 !!

    dan p
    Nope.

    The departure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a departure that takes place AFTER the Rapture.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Verse 1 is the Rapture.

    Verse 2 is the day of the Lord in His Wrath, which, according to that verse, they had been swayed into believing was now upon them.

    Verse 3's departure reveals the man of sin for who he is: the son of perdition, verse 4.

    The people that shall see what said departure reveals: the man of sin - will be here on earth to see said departure unfold.

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    Obviously they are Believing Israelites.

    What then, is that departure?

    Back to 2 Thessalonians for a sec...

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Now notice - Believing Israelites...

    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    In other words, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is describing how things will be AFTER verse 1's Rapture.

    He is rightly dividing these things someone has come along and convinced them they were supposedly living through.

    He is describing Prophetic events AFTER verse 1's Rapture.

    Some further background on what verse 3's falling away at some point AFTER verse 1's Rapture, is a actually a reference to...

    It is partly a reference to apostate Israel...

    Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    There is that departure that reveals to the Believing Remnant the man of sin - when Umbelieving Israelites completely turn from their covenant and side with him...

    Here it is described once more...

    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

    When this whole scale departure from their covenant to this individual; when that happens, the Believing Remnant will know from that, that "the time of the end is upon them."

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    That is what Paul is talking about.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    In other words, Paul was REMINDING the Thessalonians they would not be a part of any of that; a point he returns to...

    2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Nope.

    The departure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a departure that takes place AFTER the Rapture.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Verse 1 is the Rapture.

    Verse 2 is the day of the Lord in His Wrath, which, according to that verse, they had been swayed into believing was now upon them.

    Verse 3's departure reveals the man of sin for who he is: the son of perdition, verse 4.

    The people that shall see what said departure reveals: the man of sin - will be here on earth to see said departure unfold.

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    Obviously they are Believing Israelites.

    What then, is that departure?

    Back to 2 Thessalonians for a sec...

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Now notice - Believing Israelites...

    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    In other words, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is describing how things will be AFTER verse 1's Rapture.

    He is rightly dividing these things someone has come along and convinced them they were supposedly living through.

    He is describing Prophetic events AFTER verse 1's Rapture.

    Some further background on what verse 3's falling away at some point AFTER verse 1's Rapture, is a actually a reference to...

    It is partly a reference to apostate Israel...

    Daniel 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    There is that departure that reveals to the Believing Remnant the man of sin - when Umbelieving Israelites completely turn from their covenant and side with him...

    Here it is described once more...

    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

    When this whole scale departure from their covenant to this individual; when that happens, the Believing Remnant will know from that, that "the time of the end is upon them."

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    That is what Paul is talking about.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    In other words, Paul was REMINDING the Thessalonians they would not be a part of any of that; a point he returns to...

    2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

    Hi Danoh and your Mark 13:14 happens in the Great Tribulation as the B O C is already GONE , by 3 1/2 years !!

    Stay if you could and you will be surprised , LOL , Eph 3:9 !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi Danoh and your Mark 13:14 happens in the Great Tribulation as the B O C is already GONE , by 3 1/2 years !!

    Stay if you could and you will be surprised , LOL , Eph 3:9 !!

    dan p
    Went right past ya, ay.

    Mark 13 takes place during the second departure (of the two departures mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2).

    You might try reading my prior post a bit more carefully.

    For again, you are reading something into my words I never said, nor hold to.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Went right past ya, ay.

    Mark 13 takes place during the second departure (of the two departures mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2).

    You might try reading my prior post a bit more carefully.

    For again, you are reading something into my words I never said, nor hold to.

    Rom. 5:6-8.
    Hi Danoh and where are the 2 departures mentioned in 2 Thess 2:2 ??

    Check the KJV and it reads "the Day of Christ " BUT the NIV , REV , ESV , NLT all read in 2 Thess e:2 " Day of the Lord ?

    What is the difference ?

    Which one is right and I believe that the correct thoughts are in verse 2-9 !!

    What say you ??

    Be clear and DO NOT go over my HEAD ??
    Last edited by DAN P; May 8th, 2018 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi Danoh and where are the 2 departures mentioned in 2 Thess 2:2 ??

    Check the KJV and it reads "the Day of Christ " BUT the NIV , REV , ESV , NLT all read in 2 Thess e:2 " Day of the Lord ?

    What is the difference ?

    Which one is right and I believe that the correct thoughts are in verse 2-9 !!

    What say you ??

    Be clear and DO NOT go over my HEAD ??
    The following is my first post hereinabove, but in different words. You might want to compare the two, as the first post has the passages this one is also based on.

    There are two departures being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2.

    One is a departure FROM this Earth TO God in Glory by the Body, and the other is a departure ON this Earth by men FROM God.

    The first departure is by the Body, from the Earth, and is referred to in verse 1 as "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him."

    THAT is the Pre-Trib Rapture.

    Paul follows that one with a discussion of the other one.

    Someone had taken the fact that the Thessalonians were going through persecutions to convince them that they had missed the Rapture, and were now living in the day of Christ in His Wrath.

    Paul reminds them that that was not the case.

    That the day of Christ in His Wrath would not happen until what Daniel had Prophesied takes place first - a departure by the world from all that is worshipped or called God, unto a strong delusion, or counterfeit of it.

    In other words, Paul is assuring them that if they were living in the day of Christ in His Wrath, they would have seen this departure of the world from all that is worshipped or that is called God; they would have seen the rise of Antichrist.

    The key is in noting that Paul is talking about things that will happen when the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose, is back in full swing, at some point after, the Pre-Trib Rapture in verse 1.

    And yeah, I am aware of the "varients" in texts - "day of the Lord" and "day of Christ."

    And I've heard all the arguments that every where else that Paul mentions the phrase "the day of Christ" it refers to the Rapture.

    But after verse 1, in 2 Thessalonians 2, those passages are depicting things within the Prophetic aspect.

    Within the Prophetic aspect, the day of the Lord also has an understanding of the day of Christ in His wrath, in mind...

    Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    The following is my first post hereinabove, but in different words. You might want to compare the two, as the first post has the passages this one is also based on.

    There are two departures being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2.

    One is a departure FROM this Earth TO God in Glory by the Body, and the other is a departure ON this Earth by men FROM God.

    The first departure is by the Body, from the Earth, and is referred to in verse 1 as "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him."

    THAT is the Pre-Trib Rapture.

    Paul follows that one with a discussion of the other one.

    Someone had taken the fact that the Thessalonians were going through persecutions to convince them that they had missed the Rapture, and were now living in the day of Christ in His Wrath.

    Paul reminds them that that was not the case.

    That the day of Christ in His Wrath would not happen until what Daniel had Prophesied takes place first - a departure by the world from all that is worshipped or called God, unto a strong delusion, or counterfeit of it.

    In other words, Paul is assuring them that if they were living in the day of Christ in His Wrath, they would have seen this departure of the world from all that is worshipped or that is called God; they would have seen the rise of Antichrist.

    The key is in noting that Paul is talking about things that will happen when the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose, is back in full swing, at some point after, the Pre-Trib Rapture in verse 1.

    And yeah, I am aware of the "varients" in texts - "day of the Lord" and "day of Christ."

    And I've heard all the arguments that every where else that Paul mentions the phrase "the day of Christ" it refers to the Rapture.

    But after verse 1, in 2 Thessalonians 2, those passages are depicting things within the Prophetic aspect.

    Within the Prophetic aspect, the day of the Lord also has an understanding of the day of Christ in His wrath, in mind...

    Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Rom. 5:6-8.

    Hi Danoh an I Prefer the Day of the LORD and other Greek texts say " THE DAY OF THE LORD "

    In verse 1 the Greek word PAROUSIA speaks to the RAPTURE / DEPARTURE of the B O C

    The context in 2 Thess 2:2 I believe that is correct because of verse 3 !!

    The DEPARTURE of the B O C has to happen first !!

    Then the MAN OF SIN ( anti-christ ) should be revealed !!

    The Day of the Lord , speaks ( Isa 2:12 ) speaks to Israel in the Great Tribulation !!

    And in 1 Thess 5:2 and through all the suffering and from 2 Thess 2:2 verse 2 , there spurious letters as if written from Paul in trying to under mine Paul !!

    dan p

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