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Thread: How to tell if you're a Marxist

  1. #16
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by everready View Post
    Another example..

    Gun Control..

    “A free people ought to be armed.”
    – George Washington

    “Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    LOL. You're a funny guy, barby. But since you insist I'll post the 10 planks from the Communist manifesto.

    I'll include another part of it too.

    Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

    These measures will of course be different in different countries.

    Nevertheless in the most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

    When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

    In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
    Notice what Marx says below. His ideology abolishes eternal truths, all religion, and all morality. Now, the implications of such a statement are quite profound. They mean that Marx thought nothing of using deciet, treachery, murder, misrepresentation, etc... in the accomplishment of his goals. He recognized no value in honesty, forthrightness, kindness, honor, duty, etc.... And he does all this very explicitly. And his followers have trod in his footsteps. Marxists have taken him at his word, and completely left behind all that in the end makes life good, pleasant, and sustainable for a society based upon the lack of all good morals is not a society that can exist for long. A marxist cannot allow liberty of conscience or liberty of thought for these ideas stand in total opposition to the very foundation of the ideology.

    "There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc. that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."
    Here's how Max Eastman describes Marx putting these ideas into practice in Reflections of the Failure of Socialism.
    Marx was so sure that the world was going to be redeemed
    by its own dialectic evolution that he would not permit his
    disciples to invoke the guidance of moral ideals. He really
    meant it when he said the workers have "no ideal to realize,"
    they have only to participate in the contemporary struggle.
    He expelled people from his 'Communist party for mention-
    ing programmatically such things as "love," "justice," "hu-
    manity," even "morality" itself. "Soulful ravings," "sloppy
    sentimentality," he called such expressions, and purged the
    astonished authors as though they had committed the most
    dastardly crimes.
    Later in life, when Marx founded the First International,
    he felt compelled for the sake of a big membership to soft-
    pedal his highbrow insight into the purposes of the universe.
    He wrote privately to Engels:"I was obliged to insert in the
    preamble two phrases about 'duty and right,' ditto 'truth,
    morality, and justice.'" But these lamentable phrases-he as-
    sured his friend-- 'are placed in such a way that they can do
    no harm."
    This mystic faith in evolution set Marx's mind free, and,
    alas, his natural disposition, to replace the honest campaign
    of public persuasion by which other gospels have been prop-
    agated, with schemes for deceiving the public and tricking
    his way into positions of power. It was Marx, not Lenin, who
    invented the technique of the "front organization," the de-
    vice of pretending to be a democrat in order to destroy de-
    mocracy, the ruthless purging of dissident party members,
    the employment of false personal slander in this task.
    It was Marx and Engels who adopted "scorn and con..
    tempt" as the major key in which to attack the opponents of
    socialism, introducing a literature of vituperation that has
    few parallels in history. Even the political masterstroke of
    giving the land to the peasants "initially" in order to take it
    away from them when the power is secure came from the
    same source. The introduction of such unprincipled behav-
    ior into a movement toward the highest ends of man was
    entirely the work of Marx and Engels. Lenin added nothing
    to it but skill, and Stalin nothing but total instinctive indif-
    ference to the ends.
    Notice that Marx and Engels were the pioneers of the Marxist movement in using scorn and contompt for all who opposed them. These are the very same tactics used today marxists. We don't find a discussion of the issues. We see accusations of racism, sexism, whatever ism you want to use, as the modus operandi of the left. We also don't see honesty, forthrightness, kindness, etc.... coming from them. It's no wonder either as they are following in the footsteps of their master.

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    Over 500 post club everready's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    “Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second


    https://americainchains2009.wordpres...d-gun-control/
    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

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    If Marx had advocated a firm belief in medicine and science as a cornerstone of the Marxist state would that make those who believe in their value Marxist?
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







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    This is an interesting set of arguments. Let's start with the first one....

    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)
    CLICK HERE to see the 14th Amendment. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything in there about abolishing private property and/or turning all income generated from land use over to the government.

    Can you explain ffreeloader?

    Similarly, can you explain exactly how zoning laws, property taxes, and the BLM constitute "abolition of private property"?
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    This is an interesting set of arguments. Let's start with the first one....



    CLICK HERE to see the 14th Amendment. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything in there about abolishing private property and/or turning all income generated from land use over to the government.

    Can you explain ffreeloader?

    Similarly, can you explain exactly how zoning laws, property taxes, and the BLM constitute "abolition of private property"?
    Before I answer I have a question for you. If you go out and dig a pound of gold out of the ground on your own property or on an established claim, who does the gold belong to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Before I answer I have a question for you. If you go out and dig a pound of gold out of the ground on your own property or on an established claim, who does the gold belong to?
    Sorry, I don't play the game where I ask you a question, you dodge it, and then demand that I answer yours.

    If you can directly address the questions I raised to you, please do so. If you can't, then just say so and we'll move on.

    EDIT: Regarding your question....CLICK HERE and HERE.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Eveready suggests:


    The difference is, Obama never advocated banning guns, while Trump has openly advocated violating the 2nd Amendment.

    But this isn't about the facts for you, is it?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    This is an interesting set of arguments. Let's start with the first one....



    CLICK HERE to see the 14th Amendment. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything in there about abolishing private property and/or turning all income generated from land use over to the government.

    Can you explain ffreeloader?

    Similarly, can you explain exactly how zoning laws, property taxes, and the BLM constitute "abolition of private property"?
    It's not intended to be taken literally. It's just stuff right wingers chant during their programming.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    There is nothing even remotely "Marxist " about our government and there never has been . Right-wing extremists still accuse the Democratic party of being "Marxist and communist " but only people who don't have a clue about Marxism and communism are do this .
    Originally, Marx was right about some things . In Europe, wealthy industrialists were greedy and unscrupulous and exploited their employees with low pay and poor, dangerous and unhealthy work environments . They grew very rich and the poor lived in misery . Marx wanted to do something about this and help the poor to escape the terrible conditions in which they lived .
    But his ideas about how to do this were simply unrealistic . Later, Lenin and the other Russian communists called themselves "Marxists " but merely set up a totalitarian authoritarian police state in Russia where there was no private enterprise, no stock market , the government nationalized and controlled all business and industry and controlled employee pay and distribution of goods and services . But this was a terrible economic system and was extremely inefficient . The overall quality of goods, services and food etc was very poor and the amount of these available was woefully inadequate . Not to mention the suppression of all dissent and persecution of dissenters , and the brutal suppression of religion and minority peoples in the Soviet Union .
    So things went from the extreme of having a wealthy minority in the private sector which oppressed workers to a government which oppressed workers and the entire populace .
    America is not heading toward communist oppression - it is heading toward the kind of conditions where private industry and captains of industry exploited and oppressed the populace . The very conditions which led to what Marx tried to remedy .
    In America today, the richest and most powerful CEOs of the big corporation are pretty much the de facto government . They have the Republican party in their hands and their pay . The GOP are the paid shills of the biggest industrial fat cats . Trump is one of these fat cats, and though not a rich was say, the Koch brothers and other rich people, he wants to make himself as rich as
    possible What better way to do this than by conning his way into being elected president with zero qualifications for the ?
    America is now an oligarchy and a kleptocracy . Not to mention an idiocracy and a kakistocracy, or government by the worst people . We are no longer a Democracy if Trump can become president so he can feather his own nest and the other big industrialists control congress so they can keep our government from making laws regulating the environment for safety against pollution and unclean air, food and water etc .
    The Democrats in Washington are dong their best to try to keep the Republicans from depriving millions of America of health care , help for those out of work , the poor, the disabled , the elderly and children etc , but so far it's been an uphill battle and the Republicans control both houses unfortunately .
    Poor and middle class Americans who voted for Trump voted against their own interests . The Republicans have maintained Reagan's disastrous supply side "trickle down" economics and forced wages to stagnate of decades while the cost of living increases steadily . So we have ever increasing poverty, unemployment and helplessness in America . The poor an unemployed can't find good jobs and to many of the middle class are struggling to provide for their families .
    Our universities re pricing themselves out of existence and there isn't enough financial help.
    The minimum wage is too low even though employers and corporations could easily afford a $15 minimum without causing an increase in prices or risking going out of business .
    America badly needs more and ore scientists, doctors and other highly killed people in order to remain in competition with the global economy but the cost of getting undergraduate and graduate degree or medical and law degrees has become prohibitive even though many European countries have no problem providing free college education . Because of this , America is shooting itself in the effort .

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    It's not intended to be taken literally. It's just stuff right wingers chant during their programming.
    Far-left wingers go one step farther than chanting they, RIOT!
    Last edited by Grosnick Marowbe; April 21st, 2018 at 03:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Sorry, I don't play the game where I ask you a question, you dodge it, and then demand that I answer yours.

    If you can directly address the questions I raised to you, please do so. If you can't, then just say so and we'll move on.

    EDIT: Regarding your question....CLICK HERE and HERE.
    No games. I wanted to understand your idea of what constitutes property. The links you gave say you accept the marxist idea of government taking property away from the individual. There was a time in this country where when a person bought land all rights went with it. Now that has been done away with. That is taking away the property of the individual. It's marxist in origin and concept.

    The 14th amendment says that the debt of the federal government cannot be questioned. Now who pays that debt? Taxpayers which means we the people. The government has no money or income of its own. All it has it what it takes away from others. So, when th 14th amendment says the debt cannot be questioned it is saying the government can reach into your pockets and mine and spend as much of our money as it pleases. In doing so it is taking our property and we have no recourse to recover our property.

    You really don't understand how zoning laws are the government taking over private property? Zoning laws tell a person what they can do on their own property. Meaning that they do not control their own property. The individual bought it with his own money, yet the government controls it. That's a removal of his property. That which he does not control he does not really own. Through zoning laws state, county, city and multiple federal agencies government can come in an retroactively rezone or repurpose land which often destroys the owners rights on his own land. Say he's a farmer and the city annexes his land. Can he still farm there? Nope. It's now zoned for another purpose. That is often done under eminent domain laws which have been expanded to where government at any level can come in and take land away from private individuals and rezone it commercial for real estate developers and an increase in taxes. And you don't understand any of this?

    As to the BLM, where does the Constitution give the federal government ownership of state land? It doesn't. That power is found nowhere in the Constitution. This is federal government encroachment upon the rights of the states. It is not legal as the Constitution is the highest law of the land. In the state of Nevada the federal government claims ownership of 81% of the land and adminsters that land through the BLM. So does the state actually govern it's own territory? Only 1 out of 5 acres, the rest is governed by the BLM.

    In the big brouhaha in Eastern Oregon where the FBI shot and killed Lavoy Finicum the BLM had been taking over ranches for decades by diverting a river so that it flooded ranches whose owners who wouldn't sell to them. By this tactic they had run most ranchers into bankruptcy. Then the BLM bought their land for pennies on the dollar of actual value. There were only a very few ranchers left, one of whom was Lavoy Finicum. They killed him for his obstinacy. But the most interesting part of the whole nasty episode was that there was uranium on that land and the powers that be wanted to include that mine in the Uranium One deal that the Obama administration pushed through. They couldn't do that as long as the land was privately owned so the BLM had spent decades prying, illegally, the owners off their land. And you don't see how the BLM is taking the private property of US citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Sorry, I don't play the game where I ask you a question, you dodge it, and then demand that I answer yours.

    If you can directly address the questions I raised to you, please do so. If you can't, then just say so and we'll move on.

    EDIT: Regarding your question....CLICK HERE and HERE.
    Who is 'we'll,' have you got a mouse in your pocket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    If Marx had advocated a firm belief in medicine and science as a cornerstone of the Marxist state would that make those who believe in their value Marxist?
    If a man had a wooden leg would that make him, a table?
    Last edited by Grosnick Marowbe; April 21st, 2018 at 03:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Eveready suggests:


    The difference is, Obama never advocated banning guns, while Trump has openly advocated violating the 2nd Amendment.

    But this isn't about the facts for you, is it?
    Speaking about 'facts,' I have observed over the past year and a half or so that, facts and truth are Kryptonite to far-left zealots.
    Last edited by Grosnick Marowbe; April 21st, 2018 at 03:31 PM.

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