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    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horn View Post
    Wrong !!!! It's actually the REPUBLICANS who are thieves , because they are the ones who actually "redistribute wealth " in America .
    But they do this as reverse Robin Hoods, stealing from the poor and middle class to make the rich even richer . And this is exactly what Trump is trying to do now . His whole "tax cut " promise is nothing but another GOP scam . Only the richest 1 % of Americans will benefit from it . Beware !
    You might just be very close to going against the Moratorium, pal? Better be careful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    What are you calling 'real money'?
    Is not the money we are all going to use to pay our bills this month 'real money'?

    Unfortunately it is not real money. It is an instrument of debt. All the dollars in the US have, for decades, been created out of thin air when someone, or some organization, borrows money from the Federal Reserve. If everyone in the US paid off all their debts, including the government, there would be exactly none of our fiat currency in circulation. This house of cards is on the verge of collapse. It's why the stock market is so volatile. It's why the Federal Reserve has interest rates so low. Why? Because if borrowing stops the entire pyramid scam collapses, and everyone from the man on the street to the Federal government is so overloaded with debt that it is no longer possible to keep on borrowing. The piper is about to be paid, and when it does the dollar will completely collapse and so will the ability to get any kind of credit. Physical money, i.e. silver and gold will be the only way to retain wealth.

    This has come about because the world has wondered after Keynesian economic theory which is nothing more than scam. The bankers like it because it allows them to empty our pockets with inflation and interest. The politicians like it because they love to spend our money to buy our votes to keep themselves in power and in the gravy train of corruption. They, the politicians and the bankers, have drained us dry. Do you realize that 75% of Americans live from hand to mouth? That's right 3 out of every 4 Americans have no savings accounts. If they lose their job they are homeless in a very short time. Why? Because of several things. Keynesian economics said wealth comes about through spending, not through saving. Keynesian economics says you can borrow and spend yourself to becoming wealthy. Thus people have lived to the very edge of the income for decades and borrowed and spent without a thought for the future. And all the while inflation and interest have driven them into slavery. There's an old saying, He who has the gold makes the rules, and today the average American has no gold. All he has is debt.

    Our government is financially bankrupt. It owes more than $150 trillion for which it has given no thought to how it will be paid. Our published debt, that for which Congress has accounted for and contracted us, we the taxpayers to pay back, is 103.7% of our national gdp--the sum of all our production in a year. We're getting close to the same level of debt that ireland, Italy, Greece, etc... have that is literally crushing their economies. Since the beginning of the current fiscal year, October of 2017, the Federal government has paid almost 1/4 of a trillion dollars in interest on that debt, and that is only going to go up as we are still borrowing and spending beyond our means, and interest rates are starting to rise. That means just the interest on the money we have borrowed is going to equal approximately 1/2 of what the Federal government spend in discretionary spending this year. Interest alone will be within $100 billion of what we spend on defense. All this debt is what you and I, the citizens of the United States of America, must pay back that our politicians have saddled us with through their profligate spending.

    If you look at a dollar bill it says it is backed by the faith and credit of the US government. Just how much faith do you have in corrupt politicians and how much credit would you give to a government that has spent itself into oblivion?

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    The book argues that selfishness is not an evil, but a virtue.

    I'll give a brief analogy.

    Let's say a man spends years in his garage on an idea he has.
    He has created an energy source that is cleaner, less costly to operate, and more efficient.
    But others have decided that his efforts cannot have a different value than the current methods of energy, otherwise the other businesses would lose money and go out of business, therefore hurting the community because of jobs lost.
    So he is forbidden from producing this product in the market, and one of the reasons they give is that it would be SELFISH of him to not consider all those folks that would lose jobs.
    Mind you that this was all done by politicians who were getting favors from those businesses, so anything that came along that threatened that was dealt with by creating laws that were proposed in a way that appeared to be for the collective good.
    The inventor was left with the impression that his brilliant idea and efforts were nothing more than just a selfish dream of his, and not in the best interest of the collective society, so he should abandon those ideas in his mind as evil and selfish ideas.
    But was it?


    Money is just a synonym of a standardized value system.
    So the root of money is the creation of a standardized value system.
    And once created, can be manipulated and abused with no limits and can strip you of your value on a whim.


    We can see in scripture that no one member of the body (the collective society) can say it has more value than another ----- ie. the eye cannot say to the ear that it is more important to the body.
    But we mindlessly accept that a surgeon is valued more than a waitress when it comes to a monetary system.


    Is your brain scrambled yet?
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffreeloader View Post
    Unfortunately it is not real money.
    Spoiler
    It is an instrument of debt. All the dollars in the US have, for decades, been created out of thin air when someone, or some organization, borrows money from the Federal Reserve. If everyone in the US paid off all their debts, including the government, there would be exactly none of our fiat currency in circulation. This house of cards is on the verge of collapse. It's why the stock market is so volatile. It's why the Federal Reserve has interest rates so low. Why? Because if borrowing stops the entire pyramid scam collapses, and everyone from the man on the street to the Federal government is so overloaded with debt that it is no longer possible to keep on borrowing. The piper is about to be paid, and when it does the dollar will completely collapse and so will the ability to get any kind of credit. Physical money, i.e. silver and gold will be the only way to retain wealth.

    This has come about because the world has wondered after Keynesian economic theory which is nothing more than scam. The bankers like it because it allows them to empty our pockets with inflation and interest. The politicians like it because they love to spend our money to buy our votes to keep themselves in power and in the gravy train of corruption. They, the politicians and the bankers, have drained us dry. Do you realize that 75% of Americans live from hand to mouth? That's right 3 out of every 4 Americans have no savings accounts. If they lose their job they are homeless in a very short time. Why? Because of several things. Keynesian economics said wealth comes about through spending, not through saving. Keynesian economics says you can borrow and spend yourself to becoming wealthy. Thus people have lived to the very edge of the income for decades and borrowed and spent without a thought for the future. And all the while inflation and interest have driven them into slavery. There's an old saying, He who has the gold makes the rules, and today the average American has no gold. All he has is debt.

    Our government is financially bankrupt. It owes more than $150 trillion for which it has given no thought to how it will be paid. Our published debt, that for which Congress has accounted for and contracted us, we the taxpayers to pay back, is 103.7% of our national gdp--the sum of all our production in a year. We're getting close to the same level of debt that ireland, Italy, Greece, etc... have that is literally crushing their economies. Since the beginning of the current fiscal year, October of 2017, the Federal government has paid almost 1/4 of a trillion dollars in interest on that debt, and that is only going to go up as we are still borrowing and spending beyond our means, and interest rates are starting to rise. That means just the interest on the money we have borrowed is going to equal approximately 1/2 of what the Federal government spend in discretionary spending this year. Interest alone will be within $100 billion of what we spend on defense. All this debt is what you and I, the citizens of the United States of America, must pay back that our politicians have saddled us with through their profligate spending.

    If you look at a dollar bill it says it is backed by the faith and credit of the US government. Just how much faith do you have in corrupt politicians and how much credit would you give to a government that has spent itself into oblivion?
    I'm not even talking about the gold or silver standard.
    People could buy and trade even before there was a gold standard.
    Even the value placed on gold and silver fluctuated.
    Doesn't matter if you use a hunk of gold or the "thin air" money we use today ...... it all has a value attached to it (ie. can purchase items and services).

    As far as having gold, what need does anyone really have for gold in their everyday living?
    Of all the metals I've used in my lifetime, I cannot think of a single instance when I ever thought "I need gold to get this done".
    But someone decided to place a great value on something I have never really needed.
    Not that gold has no practical use at all, but few have a need for it in their everyday living.
    And now we have a world that covets gold, something the vast majority don't even have a need for.

    And now, as you say, we have "thin air" money that the world covets.
    Why? Because someone placed a great value on it.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers
    I think the guy gives them too much value.
    They didn't change my life.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    What are you calling 'real money'?
    Is not the money we are all going to use to pay our bills this month 'real money'?
    Nope... that's funny money that the government prints more of all the time. Therefore, your "money" looses value all the time.

    Real money are things like gold and silver that have intrinsic value and can't be manipulated by the powers that be.

    You might want to get a hold of some books by Murray Rothbard explaining the history of money and banking (as well as a true free market).
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Are you talking about 'Monopoly money?' Are you saying that's, real money? I mean the kind you can purchase Park Place and Boardwalk with?
    Not funny.

    If you don't understand what I'm talking about, do some research on the history of money. That stuff the government prints is not real money.

    If it was real money, the government could make everyone rich by simply printing every citizen a million dollars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    duplicate

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Nope... that's funny money that the government prints more of all the time. Therefore, your "money" looses value all the time.

    Real money are things like gold and silver that have intrinsic value and can't be manipulated by the powers that be.

    You might want to get a hold of some books by Murray Rothbard explaining the history of money and banking (as well as a true free market).
    The value of gold has not remained constant any more than the value of "thin air money" has remained constant.
    Gold was given great value, and it wasn't because gold was soooooooooooo needed by people, because there are very few needs that gold meets.
    It there was no great value given to gold, then most folks would just pass it right by if they found a load because they have little to no need for gold itself.
    Let's face it, most all the gold folks have is for decorative use only, and not a necessity.

    What is logical about creating an illusion of placing a great value on something that has no great necessity and that anyone could live without?
    Why do we do that, why would we allow our minds to do that?

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    The value of gold has not remained constant any more than the value of "thin air money" has remained constant.
    You're confusing the fact that you're comparing gold to the dollar. The dollar is inflated by the government printing presses.

    Also, don't get the idea that the value of money is a constant. It's a commodity. i.e., money changes value based on supply and demand, just like everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Gold was given great value, and it wasn't because gold was soooooooooooo needed by people, because there are very few needs that gold meets.
    It there was no great value given to gold, then most folks would just pass it right by if they found a load because they have little to no need for gold itself.
    Let's face it, most all the gold folks have is for decorative use only, and not a necessity.
    You don't understand why gold and silver are very good stores of value.

    Once upon a time, beaver pelts were money in some places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    What is logical about creating an illusion of placing a great value on something that has no great necessity and that anyone could live without?
    Why do we do that, why would we allow our minds to do that?
    Learn about the barter system and you might be able to understand the value of gold and silver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  21. #41
    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Not funny.

    If you don't understand what I'm talking about, do some research on the history of money. That stuff the government prints is not real money.

    If it was real money, the government could make everyone rich by simply printing every citizen a million dollars.
    Don't get hysterical. There's a time coming when ALL that desire to buy or sell will have to take the 'Mark of the Beast.' Read your Bible and find out about that time in the future. You and your fellow 'Conspiracy theorists' are gonna end up on Prozac and Xanax if ya don't watch out.

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  23. #42
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    Most average people can't afford to buy Gold anyway. Back in the 1970s I got a hankering to by a few ounces of Gold, so I called around to see how much it cost to buy a couple or so of, Krugerrands, It was $250.00 dollars an ounce back then, however, the guy on the phone told me to wait a while because the price was gonna go down. I listened to him and didn't purchase any. Within a short period of time, Gold went up to over $900.00 an ounce. A guy where I worked at the time, encouraged me to buy Silver (It was about five or six dollars an ounce then) I didn't and within about a matter of months to a year or so, it went up to around $60.00 an ounce. Gold is going for, just under $1,400.00 dollars an ounce today, Silver is at about $16.00 an ounce.

    At this point in my life I have no interest in either of those 'Precious Metals.' Like Tambora said; "We don't use Gold or Silver for purchasing anything." Those 'Metals,' according to average citizens are ONLY used for Jewelry and other decorative and investment reasons. You can buy Gold and Silver, hide it under your bed or buried next to a tree in the garden, if you so desire, however, you'll most likely NEVER use it to purchase fast-food or fill your tank with gas. Paper money is here to stay for now. In the near future they MAY go to some form of CARD to replace paper money, but, for now, we're all relying on paper currency, get used to it until times change. Either that, or go Bankrupt purchasing Gold.

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  25. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I'm not even talking about the gold or silver standard.
    People could buy and trade even before there was a gold standard.
    Even the value placed on gold and silver fluctuated.
    Doesn't matter if you use a hunk of gold or the "thin air" money we use today ...... it all has a value attached to it (ie. can purchase items and services).

    As far as having gold, what need does anyone really have for gold in their everyday living?
    Of all the metals I've used in my lifetime, I cannot think of a single instance when I ever thought "I need gold to get this done".
    But someone decided to place a great value on something I have never really needed.
    Not that gold has no practical use at all, but few have a need for it in their everyday living.
    And now we have a world that covets gold, something the vast majority don't even have a need for.

    And now, as you say, we have "thin air" money that the world covets.
    Why? Because someone placed a great value on it.
    The value of gold, and it has been used for millenia as money, is because it has so many good properties: it is basically non-destructible, it is rare, it can be used in many many manufacturing processes, it is compact and easy to carry in small amounts, etc... meaning it has intrinsic value. It's value is very stable. Back in the days of Rome a man could buy a full set of good quality clothes--toga, shoes, belt/sash--for an ounce of gold. Today you can buy a good quality suit, shirt, belt, and a pair of shoes for an ounce of gold. So tell me how gold has changed in value over 2000 years.

    It's true that the price of gold coinage has had a percieved fluctuation in value, but the underlying value hasn't changed. The perception is due to manipulation of the amount of gold in minted coins. That's artificial in nature. Roman emporers did it as Rome declined. They added base metals of much lesser value to their coins. That was their form of inflation as sources of income vanished.

    What you see today as variation in gold prices is actually the variation in fiat currency. The price of gold isn't varying, the value of the fiat currency is declining, therefore the number of dollars need to buy gold goes up. The price of gold has been being manipulated in the last couple of decades like it was never possible to do before. How? There is what is known in financial circles as "paper gold". It is sold on commodity markets as GLD. When someone buys it they don't actually get real gold. They get a piece of paper that says you can get so much gold. But, there is so much of this in circulation that any honest financial analyst will tell you that you will never get your physical gold. There aren't large enough stockpiles of gold to cover it. The central banks, not wanting people to know exactly how valueless their paper money really is manipulate the price of gold by selling billions of dollars of this GLD paper on the commodity markets on a fairly regular basis. These selling sprees depress the price of real gold for there are enough people who don't realize that this paper gold is a scam so when the price goes down from the massive selloffs of paper gold they buy it. Thus the price of gold is seen to fluctuate. But it isn't. It's the currency around it that is fluctuating in value.

    Percieved value is not real value. You need to understand that. Gold and silver have real value because of what a person can do with them. Gold and silver are used in many manufacturing processes. The are converted into jewelry, dining ware, etc.... If they melt in a fire the value isn't gone. Gold is still gold and silver is still silver. If paper money burns what is left? Nothing. The percieved value is simply gone.

    I've studied this for a long time now. I started out with your point of view. I changed my point of view because of coming to understand economics after studying it for more than a decade. The media, bankers, and government have sold the US public a bill of goods. We, as a people, are woefully ignorant on economic issues, and we are told one economic fallacy after another to keep us ignorant. Why? Because if we, as a people, understood what is really going on we would rise in rebellion against the powers that be.

    I'll give you a link to a book on money and how governments and bankers manipulate it. It's a free book that shows exactly how money works, what it is, how it is manipulated, how inflation works, etc... in layman's terms. I hope you will take the time to read it as it is a good starting point for understanding financial issues. The title of the book is Honest Money. It speaks to money from the Christian perspective and uses Biblical principles throughout. https://mises.org/library/honest-money

    I read this book years ago and it has helped me immensely in my understanding of economic issues. Honest money is something the US hasn't seen in more than 100 years.

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  27. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    You're confusing the fact that you're comparing gold to the dollar.
    No I am not.
    I am talking about what value' has been placed on them.

    Also, don't get the idea that the value of money is a constant.
    I don't.

    You don't understand why gold and silver are very good stores of value.
    Sure I do. It is because someone decided it could be used that way collectively, and not because it had a great use within itself, as a beaver pelt would.

    Once upon a time, beaver pelts were money in some places.
    Right.
    A value can be placed on any object.
    And the value of any object can change.


    Learn about the barter system and you might be able to understand the value of gold and silver.
    sigh

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Don't get hysterical.
    Saying "not funny" is not hysterical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    There's a time coming when ALL that desire to buy or sell will have to take the 'Mark of the Beast.' Read your Bible and find out about that time in the future.
    I know all about it. Are you really thinking that I'm a Bible illiterate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    You and your fellow 'Conspiracy theorists' are gonna end up on Prozac and Xanax if ya don't watch out.
    My comments had nothing to do with conspiracies. The "funny money" system is right in our faces, so it's no secret.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to Right Divider For Your Post:

    Tambora (April 14th, 2018)

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