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Thread: Elect or Predestined

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Elect or Predestined

    https://youtu.be/a9n1ASwC7s0

    If someone is elect, it does not mean that they will go to heaven.

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    Tambora (April 4th, 2018)

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    I'm glad to see Bob putting more lessons on youtube.
    Thanks!

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Old Timer ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    If someone is elect, it does not mean that they will go to heaven.
    Does not elect mean to be chosen and if GOD chooses us to be conformed to HIS Son, Romans 8:28-30 who can be against us, Romans 8:31?
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    https://youtu.be/a9n1ASwC7s0

    If someone is elect, it does not mean that they will go to heaven.
    Hi and , and then read 2 Tim 1:9 and what does CHOSEN , or CALLED then mean ??

    When any one is is in Christ , it is forever !!

    dan p

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    Crickets???
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttruscott View Post
    Does not elect mean to be chosen and if GOD chooses us to be conformed to HIS Son, Romans 8:28-30 who can be against us, Romans 8:31?
    God elects/chooses those who obey, and then we are to keep obeying.

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    Onward Christian soldiers! Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    God elects/chooses those who obey, and then we are to keep obeying.
    GOD chose Jacob from the womb, and it wasn't because Jacob obeyed because Jacob had done nothing right or wrong in the womb.

    GOD also chose Cyrus, and it certainly wasn't because Cyrus was such an obedient saint to GOD.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    GOD chose Jacob from the womb, and it wasn't because Jacob obeyed because Jacob had done nothing right or wrong in the womb.

    GOD also chose Cyrus, and it certainly wasn't because Cyrus was such an obedient saint to GOD.
    Not only that, Cyrus was GOD's Messiah.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    GOD chose Jacob from the womb, and it wasn't because Jacob obeyed because Jacob had done nothing right or wrong in the womb.
    Are you kidding? God knew that Jacob would fight for his inheritance and that Esau would trade it for a bowl of food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Are you kidding? God knew that Jacob would fight for his inheritance and that Esau would trade it for a bowl of food.
    Whether or not GOD already knew that is irrelevant.
    Jacob did not obey BEFORE he was chosen.
    Scripture makes a point of telling us that this choice was absolutely not due to any deed of Jacob.
    Therefore, your statement that GOD only chooses those that obey is a falsehood.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Not only that, Cyrus was GOD's Messiah.
    Yep, GOD's anointed.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Whether or not GOD already knew that is irrelevant.
    Jacob did not obey BEFORE he was chosen.
    Scripture makes a point of telling us that this choice was absolutely not due to any deed of Jacob.
    Therefore, your statement that GOD only chooses those that obey is a falsehood.
    It was about Jacob obeying. You can't get out of it. Esau was godless and God knew he would be.

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    Old Timer ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    GOD chose Jacob from the womb, and it wasn't because Jacob obeyed because Jacob had done nothing right or wrong in the womb.
    Reconcile this
    Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth. with Genesis 25:22...

    Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses. And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 ...and the children STRUGGLED together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that (they were fighting because) the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).

    But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were struggling / fighting so much in the womb.

    Struggle, jostle, wrestle: Strong's H7533 - ratsats

    • to crush, get crushed, be crushed
    • to crush, oppress (fig)
    • crushed (participle passive)
    • (Niphal) to be crushed, be broken
    • (Piel)
    to crush in pieces
    • to grievously oppress (fig)
    • (Poel) to oppress (fig)
    • (Hiphil) to crush
    • (Hithpoel) to crush each other
    Now, if they were trying to crush each other to pieces, ie, trying to murder the other, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works. So it is obvious that they were being evil in the womb yet their election was NOT of works as they had not done any evil according to Paul, it is obvious that this can only be reconciled by 1. removing the sin from their fighting as orthodoxy has done making the whole passage Incomprehensible or 2. works in the womb DO NOT COUNT as works for the purposes of our election, only works AFTER birth.

    I do not contend that this PROVES that they lived pre-conception in Sheol where they learned of the laws of primogeniture, (How DID they know this???) started to hate each other and becomes murderously sinful by their own free will...

    I mention this because many folk think that Romans 9:11 proves our pre-conception existence must be impossible but of course, it does not as using the proper interpretation of ratsats without being theologically pushed to support the current 'created on earth' bias, proves they were sinful in the womb, though Paul says they were sinless as far as election goes. PCE theology has no trouble reconciling these ideas since we contend that our election happened way before our conception on earth while we were still in Sheol.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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