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Thread: Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redfern View Post
    We know why you have to resort to infantile comebacks instead of presenting any evidence.
    Uh. OK.

    I asked a question.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Uh. OK.

    I asked a question.
    I wonder how long the deafening silence is gonna last from the others in the YEC crowd that adore Walt's HPT ideas.

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    Over 5000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfern
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days
    .. Thorns, pain, suffering and death (entropy) entered the world, as a consequence of man's sin. …
    Hmmmm… look under “Question 3: Did the 2nd Law begin at...
    The articles /authors you refer to would agree that thorns, pain, suffering and death entered the world as a consequence of men's sin. They may not agree with the narrow definition I have used for the word entropy...(deterioration of a system).

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    Quote Originally Posted by redfern View Post
    I wonder how long the deafening silence is gonna last from the others in the YEC crowd that adore Walt's HPT ideas.


    I still asked a question.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Over 1500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfern View Post
    You realize @6days may just thump on you for that comment?
    Let him thump. Yet I agree with @6days much of the time, including on much of the YEC stuff.


    On that issue, I will come over to your side, though probably for different reasons. Generally I respect @iouae’s breadth of knowledge about science. But I see @iouae and YECs as both trying to force-fit ideas from science to into their peculiar theological frameworks. From my stance as an outsider to Christianity, it would be much like watching you guys and OECs hotly debating what the divine truths in “The Lord of the Rings” are.
    The difference, of course, is Tolkien doesn't claim inspiration from God.

    Standing, as you claim, as an outsider to Christianity, let me introduce you to the idea that God both made the world and also told us something about how He created it, something no one else that we know of observed. The idea, then, that we are force-fitting ideas from science into our peculiar theological frameworks, while not a wholly inaccurate description, might be at least justifiable. On the other hand, force-fitting the text of the bible into current science frameworks might be helpful or might be futile--kind of depends on how good the current science framework turns out to be.

    Since @iouae is an OEC (of sorts), he makes frequent reference to buried layers of “biomes” as fossil evidence of failed long-ago experiments as god was learning about this making-living-things business. But if god didn’t get it quite right each of the past times, it is entirely possible god will once again realize, “Hey, I see even a better way of creating life than this Adam and Eve business. Time to empty out that petri dish on top of the other biomes and try making super-humans. Got lots of petri dishes left on the shelf, gonna keep experimenting until they all show superman-type abilities.”
    And not only the humans, but the whole of creation would be subject to that concern. Maybe humans are ok, but He got the environment wrong. Or maybe He didn't quite expect that our sun would go nova on Him.

    These arguments are also used on those of us that think God doesn't have to know the future exhaustively, which might be cause for us just to whittle down the concerns to the humans. (I.e., if God doesn't even know how to make a universe, is He worthy of being called God?)



    My intent was to use a simple scenario that made clear the conflict between perfect knowledge of the future and us having real free will
    Which attracted me to the conversation. But 6days' point, even if I don't agree with Him on the exhaustivity of God's knowledge, was the same one you say you were willing to "come over to [my] side" on: that God is surely competent enough not to just be experimenting.


    Hold on there, Newt. Don’t you go bugging out on me. You have been a refreshing breath of courtesy and honesty. I value my friends, and you are on that list.


    The feeling is mutual.
    Well, thank you! Let's talk some more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    The articles /authors you refer to would agree that thorns, pain, suffering and death entered the world as a consequence of men's sin. They may not agree with the narrow definition I have used for the word entropy...(deterioration of a system).
    I highlighted your use off the word “entropy” specifically because that is a term that in science has a pretty rigid meaning. I have seen many YECs try to prostitute the scientific applicability of that term to say things like “Darwinian evolution is impossible because it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics” (the scientific concept of entropy arises out of the SLoT). As the links I provided show, there are YECs with a technical enough understanding of physics to realize the disservice their fellow less scientifically savvy YECs were making with their frequent scientifically nonsensical use of the term. The technically savvy YECs had to author articles warning their well-intentioned but scientifically ignorant brethren away from using it incorrectly.

    But since you clarify that by entropy you basically meant the “deterioration of a system” then I will not contest your use of the term. I am pretty sure you chose that term because it sounds like a highfalutin scientific word that most of the YECs here might be impressed by. Do you feel you understand what “entropy” means in a scientific context, or can we rest assured you will always mean no more than the pedestrian meaning of entropy you offer here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Well, thank you! Let's talk some more.
    Dear Derf,

    Regarding our friendship while holding opposing views – over the last decade I have had a rather close association with a unique collection of people. They are in basically two groups – mostly elderly Americans who were on naval duty at the end of WW II, and some Japanese who were fighting on the opposing side. To cut to the crux of what is a long and fascinating story, near the end of WW II the USS Indianapolis (a ship – a heavy Cruiser in the US Navy) on the island of Tinian had just delivered the atomic bomb that would soon be dropped on Hiroshima. The Indianapolis (“Indy”, for short) then was sent sailing towards the Philippines when a Japanese sub hit it with two torpedoes. The Indy sank in 12 minutes, and when the sailors that had managed to get off the sinking ship were finally found and rescued 5 days later, only about 25% of the original crew of over 1200 were still alive. That stands to this day as the worst single ship disaster in US Naval history. Sadly, in a travesty of justice, Captain McVay, the Indy’s captain, who had survived, was blamed, and court martialed.

    But relative to you being pro and me being anti, yet still friends – a similar thing grew out of the Indy disaster. Captain McVay’s court-martial was held shortly after WW II ended, and one of the witnesses called to testify against McVay was Captain Hashimoto, the commander of the Japanese submarine that had sunk the Indy. That backfired. Though deadly enemies just months before, Hashimotosan (to use the Japanese form of speech) very pointedly declared that the Japanese sub had a perfect firing position, and there was nothing McVay could have done that would have saved his ship. Hashimotosan praised McVay as an excellent captain. Now many decades later I have heard the few still living survivors from the Indy express great respect and admiration for the man who ordered the torpedoes to be fired that sank their ship.

    (And, side note - 2 years ago, Captain Hashimoto’s granddaughter (and her daughter) stayed in my home for several days.)

    So, my friend, if you see a torpedo coming, it is not for lack of respect, but rather it is necessitated by our commitments to what we each think is right.

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    Over 1500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfern View Post
    Dear Derf,

    Regarding our friendship while holding opposing views – over the last decade I have had a rather close association with a unique collection of people. They are in basically two groups – mostly elderly Americans who were on naval duty at the end of WW II, and some Japanese who were fighting on the opposing side. To cut to the crux of what is a long and fascinating story, near the end of WW II the USS Indianapolis (a ship – a heavy Cruiser in the US Navy) on the island of Tinian had just delivered the atomic bomb that would soon be dropped on Hiroshima. The Indianapolis (“Indy”, for short) then was sent sailing towards the Philippines when a Japanese sub hit it with two torpedoes. The Indy sank in 12 minutes, and when the sailors that had managed to get off the sinking ship were finally found and rescued 5 days later, only about 25% of the original crew of over 1200 were still alive. That stands to this day as the worst single ship disaster in US Naval history. Sadly, in a travesty of justice, Captain McVay, the Indy’s captain, who had survived, was blamed, and court martialed.

    But relative to you being pro and me being anti, yet still friends – a similar thing grew out of the Indy disaster. Captain McVay’s court-martial was held shortly after WW II ended, and one of the witnesses called to testify against McVay was Captain Hashimoto, the commander of the Japanese submarine that had sunk the Indy. That backfired. Though deadly enemies just months before, Hashimotosan (to use the Japanese form of speech) very pointedly declared that the Japanese sub had a perfect firing position, and there was nothing McVay could have done that would have saved his ship. Hashimotosan praised McVay as an excellent captain. Now many decades later I have heard the few still living survivors from the Indy express great respect and admiration for the man who ordered the torpedoes to be fired that sank their ship.

    (And, side note - 2 years ago, Captain Hashimoto’s granddaughter (and her daughter) stayed in my home for several days.)
    Fascinating story! Did you enjoy the visit with Hashimoto's granddaughter?


    So, my friend, if you see a torpedo coming, it is not for lack of respect, but rather it is necessitated by our commitments to what we each think is right.
    Of course! I would expect no less. You should also know that I will undoubtedly not have sufficient defenses for all torpedoes, and that even if you sink my ship with them, the victory of the war is not yours to claim, O Redfernsan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Fascinating story! Did you enjoy the visit with Hashimoto's granddaughter?
    Very much. We stay in touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    … the victory of the war is not yours to claim
    I don’t often seek victory. I am satisfied when I feel I have honestly, firmly, and respectfully tried to clarify or correct erroneous ideas in science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    O Redfernsan.
    Do I detect some familiarity with Nihongo in your prepending the honorific “O” in front of my screen name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Standing, as you claim, as an outsider to Christianity, let me introduce you to the idea that God both made the world and also told us something about how He created it, something no one else that we know of observed.
    Here I think we have a distinct divergence on our beliefs in the Bible. Commonly I hear Christians use the term “God’s Word” as synonymous with the Bible. But I see the earlier parts of the Old Testament as being simply a collection of creation accounts that were probably orally handed down for generations within a rather primitive nomadic society. Extended arguments seen earlier in this thread, and in lots of other ToL threads show that within the Christian community there is a wide range of hotly debated beliefs as to what the creation account really says.

    For a book that is purportedly the most important tome in existence, how come it is so poorly written? No teacher that is even minimally competent would tolerate teaching from a text that is the source of so much disagreement.

    Turning to your assertion that “God both made the world and also told us something about how He created it”, as I read Genesis I don’t see God telling us anything, but rather I see pretty much what I would expect from a scientifically ignorant society trying to come up with an account of how the world came into existence.

    Speaking more broadly, what if I were to come to you with a religious tome that you were unfamiliar with. As you read it, you saw a number of examples of clear violation of scientific principles that you had never questioned before. Adherents to this religious book had protracted disagreements over crucial passages in it. Would you be likely to turn a blind eye to its ambiguity and scientific nonsense and join in praising the book?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    … force-fitting ideas from science into our peculiar theological frameworks … kind of depends on how good the current science framework turns out to be.
    Science has been spectacularly successful in helping us understand the physical universe we find ourselves in. Science has made missteps, sometimes important ones, but it has been remarkable in eventually self-correcting. In comparison, absolutist claims made by some (such as 6days) about the Bible being absolutely true are ludicrous to most scientists.

    I tend to judge the relative values of science and of religion by the fruits I see coming from each. Christianity has a track record reaching back many centuries, yet I see little scientific progress due to religion. Yet just within my lifetime, science has added more knowledge than mankind had in the several thousand years when religion was revered as the paramount source of knowledge.

    I hope you had a fine day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    The articles /authors you refer to would agree that thorns, pain, suffering and death entered the world as a consequence of men's sin. They may not agree with the narrow definition I have used for the word entropy...(deterioration of a system).
    What sort of system do you mean?

    Stuart

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