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Thread: Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

  1. #1891
    Over 750 post club truthjourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Attrocious, isn't it.
    They go to any lengths to hide their errors and deception.

    Speaking of which .......

    Here is an instance where they are deceptive about their translation of John 1:1



    Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly translate John 1:1 as follows:
    "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god"
    - New World Translation, 1960 edition
    (emphasis mine)

    In their Appendix they have an article explaining why they translate it this way and they quote from A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey to justify their translation.

    Mantey, upon learning that he had been quoted, wrote a two page article showing that it is not proper to translate this verse as the Jehovah Witnesses had done. He entitled his article A Grossly Misleading Translation.
    Mantey skillfully explains the grammar of this verse and the significance of the absence of the Greek article in the last phrase of verse 1.
    Dr. Manley's article is reproduced below in full:



    A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION

    John 1: 1 which reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God," is shockingly mistranslated, "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," in a New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published under !he auspices of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Since my name is used and our Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament is quoted on page 744 to seek to justify their translation, I am making this statement.

    The translation suggested in our Grammar for the disputed passage is, "the Word was deity." Moffatt's rendering is "the Word was divine." Williams' translation is, "the Word was God himself." Each translation reflects the dominant idea in the Greek, For, whenever an article does not precede a noun in Greek, that noun can either be considered as emphasizing the character, nature, essence or quality of a person or thing, as theos (God) docs in John 1:1, or it can be translated in certain contexts as indefinite, as !hey have done. But of all the scholars in the world, as far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have.

    If the Greek article occurred with both Word and God in John 1:1 the implication would be that they are one and the same person, absolutely identical. But John affirmed that "the Word was with (the) God" (the definite article preceding each noun), and in so writing he indicated his belief that they were distinct and separate personalities. Then John next stated that the Word was God, i.e., of the same family or essence that characterizes the Creator. Or, in other words, that both are of the same nature, and that nature is the highest in existence, namely, divine.

    Examples where the noun in the predicate does not have an article, as in the above verse, are: John 4:24, "God is spirit" (not 'a' spirit; 1 John 4:16, "God is love" (not 'a' love); and Matthew 13:39, "the reapers are angels," i.e., they are the type of beings known as angels. In each instance the noun in the predicate was used to describe some quality or characteristic of the subject, whether as to nature or type.

    The apostle John in the context of the introduction to his gospel is pulling all the stops out of language to portray not only the deity of Christ but also His equality with the Father. He states that the Word was in the beginning, that He was with God, that He was God and that all creation came into existence through Him and that not even one thing exists which was not created by Christ. What else could be said that John did not say? In John 1: 18 he explained that Christ has been so intimate with the Father that He was in His bosom and that He came to earth to exhibit or portray God. But if we had no other statement from John except that which is found in John 14:9, "He that has seen me has seen the Father," that would be enough to satisfy the seeking soul that Christ and God are the same in essence and that both are divine and equal in nature.

    Besides, the whole tenor of New Testament revelation points in this direction. Compare Paul's declaration in Colossians 1:19 for instance: "That all the divine fullness should dwell in Him," or the statement in Hebrews 1:3, "He is the reflection of God's glory and the perfect representation of His being, and continues to uphold the universe by His mighty word" (Williams' translation). And note the sweeping, cosmic claim recorded in Matthew 28:19, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."

    And, if we contrast with that the belittling implication that Christ was only a god, do we not at once detect the discord? Does not such a conception conflict with the New Testament message both in whole and in part? Why, if John, in the midst of the idolatry of his day, had made such a statement would not the first century hearers and readers have gotten a totally inadequate picture of Christ who we believe is the Creator of the universe and the only Redeemer of humanity?

    - Julius Robert Mantey, A.B., Th.D., Ph.D., D.D. Professor of Greek and New Testament Northern Baptist Theological Seminary Chicago, Illinois

    Yes it is atrocious.

    I'm familiar with the way they translate and interpret John 1:1. And also 1Tim.2:5 which I have mentioned in comments in this thread.

    The man you mentioned, Mantey, was in a video I had watched before shown around the 19:46 minute mark.

    Also in this video is Ray Franz who I've also mentioned who was an elder in the Governing Body for nine years. But what he saw and experienced really bothered his conscience. He was disfellowshipped for eating a meal with a disassociated JW and was also accused of apostasy. Following his removal, Franz wrote two books that related his personal experiences with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and his views on Jehovah's Witnesses teachings; Crisis of Conscience (1983) and In Search of Christian Freedom (1991)

    Frustrated by what he viewed as the Governing Body's dogmatism and overemphasis on traditional views rather than reliance on the Bible in reaching doctrinal decisions, Franz and his wife decided in late 1979 that they would leave the international headquarters.

    This is the video. It covers a lot of history on the JWs.

    Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness.
    I am convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of God.
    All things work together for good to them that love God.

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  3. #1892
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    John 1:1

    Greek:
    en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

    Interlinear:
    en (in) arche (beginning) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) en (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one and only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (Divine) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

    In English we have:

    In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

    The defining article "a" must be supplied for the English language, to define that there is another divine that is not the "Divine Eternal."

    Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    John 1:1

    Greek:
    en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

    Interlinear:
    en (in) arche (beginning) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) en (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one and only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (Divine) en (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

    In English we have:

    In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

    The defining article "a" must be supplied for the English language, to define that there is another divine that is not the "Divine Eternal."

    Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?
    It's saying the word was "deity", not "divine."

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  7. #1894
    Over 5000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    It's saying the word was "deity", not "divine."
    The word "God" is a modern day invention.
    The word theos translates into English as "divine."

    Strong's Greek: 2304. θεῖος (theios) -- divine - Bible Hub
    biblehub.com/greek/2304.htm

    theios: divine. Original Word: θεῖος, α, ον. Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: theios. Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-os) Short Definition: divine. Definition: divine; subst: the Deity. HELPS Word-studies. 2304 theíos (an adjective, derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.
    Strong's Greek: 2305. θειότης (theiotés) -- divinity, divine nature
    biblehub.com/greek/2305.htm

    Strong's Concordance. theiotés: divinity, divine nature. Original Word: θειότης, ητος, ἡ. Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: theiotés. Phonetic Spelling: (thi-ot'-ace) Short Definition: divinity. Definition: divinity, divine nature. HELPS Word-studies. Cognate: 2305 theiótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2304 /theíos, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You misunderstand Paul if you think that the Kingdom Gospel is not the Gospel of the Grace of God.

    Acts 28:23
    23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.




    Jesus told His followers not to go to the Gentiles because His ministry was during the last week of the prophecy of the seventy weeks and the children of Israel still had a few years to complete the tasks set upon them in the prophecy.
    The seventy weeks ended shortly after the death of Stephen and before the time Peter was sent to Cornelius, the Gentile.
    Paul's mission to the Gentiles was to teach the Gentiles that they could join the Jews in the promises of the New Covenant, where God stated that He would remember their sins no more.
    And, of course, you're wrong and earned yourself a coveted Neg-rep from Old GM.

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    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached from way back. John prepared the way for it and it went from there.

    Paul said his Gospel was something hidden until revealed by God to him.

    Not the same Gospels.

    Go back to Salt Lake City.
    Gen-O needs to stick with his Watchtower comic books.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    The word "God" is a modern day invention.
    The word theos translates into English as "divine."

    Strong's Greek: 2304. θεῖος (theios) -- divine - Bible Hub
    biblehub.com/greek/2304.htm

    theios: divine. Original Word: θεῖος, α, ον. Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: theios. Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-os) Short Definition: divine. Definition: divine; subst: the Deity. HELPS Word-studies. 2304 theíos (an adjective, derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.
    Strong's Greek: 2305. θειότης (theiotés) -- divinity, divine nature
    biblehub.com/greek/2305.htm

    Strong's Concordance. theiotés: divinity, divine nature. Original Word: θειότης, ητος, ἡ. Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: theiotés. Phonetic Spelling: (thi-ot'-ace) Short Definition: divinity. Definition: divinity, divine nature. HELPS Word-studies. Cognate: 2305 theiótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2304 /theíos, ...
    Read this, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Attrocious, isn't it.
    They go to any lengths to hide their errors and deception.

    Speaking of which .......

    Here is an instance where they are deceptive about their translation of John 1:1



    Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly translate John 1:1 as follows:
    "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god"
    - New World Translation, 1960 edition
    (emphasis mine)

    In their Appendix they have an article explaining why they translate it this way and they quote from A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey to justify their translation.

    Mantey, upon learning that he had been quoted, wrote a two page article showing that it is not proper to translate this verse as the Jehovah Witnesses had done. He entitled his article A Grossly Misleading Translation.
    Mantey skillfully explains the grammar of this verse and the significance of the absence of the Greek article in the last phrase of verse 1.
    Dr. Manley's article is reproduced below in full:



    A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION

    John 1: 1 which reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God," is shockingly mistranslated, "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," in a New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published under !he auspices of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Since my name is used and our Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament is quoted on page 744 to seek to justify their translation, I am making this statement.

    The translation suggested in our Grammar for the disputed passage is, "the Word was deity." Moffatt's rendering is "the Word was divine." Williams' translation is, "the Word was God himself." Each translation reflects the dominant idea in the Greek, For, whenever an article does not precede a noun in Greek, that noun can either be considered as emphasizing the character, nature, essence or quality of a person or thing, as theos (God) docs in John 1:1, or it can be translated in certain contexts as indefinite, as !hey have done. But of all the scholars in the world, as far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have.

    If the Greek article occurred with both Word and God in John 1:1 the implication would be that they are one and the same person, absolutely identical. But John affirmed that "the Word was with (the) God" (the definite article preceding each noun), and in so writing he indicated his belief that they were distinct and separate personalities. Then John next stated that the Word was God, i.e., of the same family or essence that characterizes the Creator. Or, in other words, that both are of the same nature, and that nature is the highest in existence, namely, divine.

    Examples where the noun in the predicate does not have an article, as in the above verse, are: John 4:24, "God is spirit" (not 'a' spirit; 1 John 4:16, "God is love" (not 'a' love); and Matthew 13:39, "the reapers are angels," i.e., they are the type of beings known as angels. In each instance the noun in the predicate was used to describe some quality or characteristic of the subject, whether as to nature or type.

    The apostle John in the context of the introduction to his gospel is pulling all the stops out of language to portray not only the deity of Christ but also His equality with the Father. He states that the Word was in the beginning, that He was with God, that He was God and that all creation came into existence through Him and that not even one thing exists which was not created by Christ. What else could be said that John did not say? In John 1: 18 he explained that Christ has been so intimate with the Father that He was in His bosom and that He came to earth to exhibit or portray God. But if we had no other statement from John except that which is found in John 14:9, "He that has seen me has seen the Father," that would be enough to satisfy the seeking soul that Christ and God are the same in essence and that both are divine and equal in nature.

    Besides, the whole tenor of New Testament revelation points in this direction. Compare Paul's declaration in Colossians 1:19 for instance: "That all the divine fullness should dwell in Him," or the statement in Hebrews 1:3, "He is the reflection of God's glory and the perfect representation of His being, and continues to uphold the universe by His mighty word" (Williams' translation). And note the sweeping, cosmic claim recorded in Matthew 28:19, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."

    And, if we contrast with that the belittling implication that Christ was only a god, do we not at once detect the discord? Does not such a conception conflict with the New Testament message both in whole and in part? Why, if John, in the midst of the idolatry of his day, had made such a statement would not the first century hearers and readers have gotten a totally inadequate picture of Christ who we believe is the Creator of the universe and the only Redeemer of humanity?

    - Julius Robert Mantey, A.B., Th.D., Ph.D., D.D. Professor of Greek and New Testament Northern Baptist Theological Seminary Chicago, Illinois


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  14. #1898
    Onward Christian soldiers! Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthjourney View Post
    JWs are instructed not to read, watch or listen to any material or information that is not directly from the Governing Body. Because the Governing Body considers information outside of their own to be "of the world", "part of Satan's system"; it is an us vs them mentality.
    This was the experience I had with them also.
    Trying to have an actual bible study with them was like pulling teeth.
    They couldn't really answer anything without looking up a reference in their notebook.
    And they would show you all their literature, but wouldn't accept any of your literature.
    Wouldn't even look at it!

    But the most bizarre thing about them was that if there was a question their little notebook didn't have a reference to, they would up and leave immediately.
    Wouldn't even finish the conversation or finish reading the scriptures we were discussing.

    After I patiently listened to their spill on their 'paradise on earth', where they claimed that their 144,000 would get to be with the Father God in heaven, but all others would not and were on earth with Christ just like it was with Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.
    So I ask a simple and obvious question ...... "Who was walking and talking with Adam in the garden?"
    They wouldn't answer!!!!
    Sat there with a shocked look, fumbling through their notebook, and then said they would have to find out the answer and get back with me.
    I said, we both have a bible right here with us, why can't we just read it and see who it was.
    They refused and left.
    That is NOT studying scripture.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    But the most bizarre thing about them was that if there was a question their little notebook didn't have a reference to, they would up and leave immediately. Wouldn't even finish the conversation or finish reading the scriptures we were discussing.
    An ex-JW says this is what happens: if they're real go-getters, they go back to HQ and seek advice from an elder (whatever they call their elders). The elder realizes there's a problem -- someone who actually knows the Bible who, possibly, could open the robot's eyes. So the elder basically forbids them going back, tells them to write you off as good as burned up. So they don't and you never see them again. Other JWs may show up down the road, but they're from a different bunch who doesn't know your house has the big invisible X on the door. The process repeats.

    Mormons do the same thing.

    It's when they find someone they can fool and who will listen to them that they'll keep coming back until they've got you.

    Satan is the apex predator of the universe.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  18. #1900
    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Also...this will be a broad generalization based only on my own experience.

    Both are blind but JWs tend to be less intelligent than Mormons.

    JWs are more programmed and unable to think on their feet beyond the script they've been taught.

    Mormons stick to a script but will go a little ways off-script before they bail out. They'll test you to see just how far your knowledge extends, and will keep up with you to a point.

    Also, Mormons seem to have a better innate sense of the threat posed by a knowledgeable Bible believer, but Mormons (imo) also have a better sense of when they're being beaten...or possibly embarrassment...than the Watchtower drone has. Mormons put up a good fight for awhile...JWs are, from the get go, like beating your head against a wall that cannot hear you.

    This could help explain the lower level, more cartoonish/childlike approach JWs take when compared with the more intellectual/academic approach of the LDS.

    It could also explain why we tend to see more JW drones on message boards than Mormons...the drones stick around longer because the anonymity and the ability to ignore what they can't answer works to their benefit. They end up being trolls and should be banned as such, but until they are, it gives them a sense of power and equality that they absolutely won't have standing on your porch reading a memorized script.

    There could be some Duning-Kruger reinforcement at work here: they're too stupid to realize just how stupid they are, so in their stupidity they think everyone else is stupid. Exhibit A: the Meshak people.

    Also, Watchtower drones tend to be older folks, while Mormon door to door missionaries are always young dudes (and sometimes females, I'm told). Not sure what to make of that, if anything.

    Anyway, to put it bluntly...seems to me that the Watchtower's ministers and literature appeal to less intelligent lost people. The LDS ministers and literature (which is basically BoM) appeal to somewhat more intelligent lost people. The ministers you see handing out both tend to reflect it.

    Now...ever wonder why you can't get anywhere with TOL's JWs?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Over 750 post club truthjourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    This was the experience I had with them also.
    Trying to have an actual bible study with them was like pulling teeth.
    They couldn't really answer anything without looking up a reference in their notebook.
    And they would show you all their literature, but wouldn't accept any of your literature.
    Wouldn't even look at it!
    I notice that now they don't even carry bibles around with them. They all have tablets with quick references to their bible translation and different topics and probably a link to the most frequently asked questions. They even use the tablets in their congregation meetings. This is something the Governing Body has done to ensure even more strict information control through the use of those tablets with information only related to The Watchtower's teachings.

    But the most bizarre thing about them was that if there was a question their little notebook didn't have a reference to, they would up and leave immediately.
    Wouldn't even finish the conversation or finish reading the scriptures we were discussing.

    After I patiently listened to their spill on their 'paradise on earth', where they claimed that their 144,000 would get to be with the Father God in heaven, but all others would not and were on earth with Christ just like it was with Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.
    So I ask a simple and obvious question ...... "Who was walking and talking with Adam in the garden?"
    They wouldn't answer!!!!
    Sat there with a shocked look, fumbling through their notebook, and then said they would have to find out the answer and get back with me.
    I said, we both have a bible right here with us, why can't we just read it and see who it was.
    They refused and left.
    That is NOT studying scripture.
    They usually go by a script for that day or used to. But sometimes a person will ask them a question that will totally confuse them and they won't know what to say. Because they have been taught and conditioned to speak a certain way, with certain words and understanding, any other way of understanding will confuse them and they aren't prepared to give an answer.

    I remember the first time I talked to a JW. I was young, in my early twenties, and this JW woman came knocking on my door. My husband was at work and my daughter was just a little baby. The first thing she said was, "Would you like to hear some good news"? and she was smiling. Being just the way that I am, I would have invited her in anyway because it was a warm day and she was most likely thirsty and had been walking quite a bit and needed to sit down and rest. If it had been a man then no, I wouldn't have invited him in but I would have offered him a cold drink and maybe just stand at the door with him outside and talk to him. I didn't know anything about JWs at that time.

    I invited her in and she was also talking about the paradise earth and those other ones who go to heaven. I remember being heartbroken at the thought that so many people wouldn't go to heaven. And I remember saying, I don't want to live forever on this earth. And she said, oh but it won't be like it is now, it will be a paradise. That didn't make me feel better when I compared even a paradise earth to heaven. It really felt more like a punishment. But I wasn't thinking at the time, wait a minute, these people don't have the right to tell me if I'm going to heaven or not. That's not their decision. That was the first red flag having someone tell me that I wasn't going to heaven and making me feel heartbroken and sad. But we don't always listen to warnings. We have to learn the hard way. I was just too young and naïve and trusting.
    Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness.
    I am convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of God.
    All things work together for good to them that love God.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to truthjourney For Your Post:

    Grosnick Marowbe (April 17th, 2018),Tambora (April 17th, 2018)

  22. #1902
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    They also claim there is no hell fire , is it true?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached from way back. John prepared the way for it and it went from there.

    Paul said his Gospel was something hidden until revealed by God to him.
    What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Gen-O needs to stick with his Watchtower comic books.
    I never heard of them before and have no desire to borrow yours to find out what they are.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    What was revealed to Paul was the inclusion of the Gentiles.
    GO, what was the reason for Israel's being cut off?

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