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Thread: Are Gods Elect ever the workers of iniquity ?

  1. #46
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    How does a Calvinist know that their "little ones" are not consigned to hell, i.e., that they are not one of "the elect?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I suppose it depends upon how one views the death of those who die in infancy. Some assume all such infants who die in infancy are heaven bound. Others, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, assume only the elect arrive in Heaven, hence all elect infants who die in infancy go to heaven. Believing parents may hope their children—outward members of the covenant of grace within which the believing parents are members—who die in infancy are in heaven, but we may not demand it to be so.

    1. Non responsive.
    Again-How does a Calvinist know that their "little ones" are not consigned to hell, i.e., that they are not one of "the elect?"




    2. Catch that, folks? "I suppose...." The above, and this "I suppose..." jazz, is the Calvinist version, definition, of "good news."

    Thanks for the "good news," Calvinists....


    Saint John W

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    1. Non responsive.
    Again-How does a Calvinist know that their "little ones" are not consigned to hell, i.e., that they are not one of "the elect?"
    It seems some bumpkins have reading difficulties...and problems formatting their posts.

    I suppose it depends upon how one views the death of those who die in infancy.

    Non-bumpkin Translation: How you view the answer to the question directly depends upon where you land as related to the death of infants in their infancy.

    Some assume all such infants who die in infancy are heaven bound. Others, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, assume only the elect arrive in Heaven, hence all elect infants who die in infancy go to heaven.

    Non-bumpkin Translation: If you are in the all infants who die go to heaven camp, then all are in heaven. If you are in the only the elect are in heaven, then you are in the only elect infants go to heaven camp. Of course, if you are in the first camp, then you basically are saying all infants dying in infancy are elect. But that second camp is not making that assumption. Rather, it is assuming that not all infants who die in infancy are elect infants, only that a multitude of infants dying in infancy are actually among the elect.

    I will ignore the roll of the dice canard which incorrectly assumes that predestination of the elect is arbitrary, despite its actually being God's setting His preferences upon another for reasons known only to Him without consideration of merit.

    AMR
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  3. #48
    TOL Legend john w's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    It seems some bumpkins have reading difficulties...and problems formatting their posts.

    I suppose it depends upon how one views the death of those who die in infancy.

    Non-bumpkin Translation: How you view the answer to the question directly depends upon where you land as related to the death of infants in their infancy.

    Some assume all such infants who die in infancy are heaven bound. Others, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, assume only the elect arrive in Heaven, hence all elect infants who die in infancy go to heaven.

    Non-bumpkin Translation: If you are in the all infants who die go to heaven camp, then all are in heaven. If you are in the only the elect are in heaven, then you are in the only elect infants go to heaven camp. Of course, if you are in the first camp, then you basically are saying all infants dying in infancy are elect. But that second camp is not making that assumption. Rather, it is assuming that not all infants who die in infancy are elect infants, only that a multitude of infants dying in infancy are actually among the elect.

    I will ignore the roll of the dice canard which incorrectly assumes that predestination of the elect is arbitrary, despite its actually being God's setting His preferences upon another for reasons known only to Him without consideration of merit.

    AMR
    Slower, condescending Calvinist/Clavinist, Jethro: Non responsive.
    Again-How does a Calvinist know that their "little ones" are not consigned to hell, i.e., that they are not one of "the elect?"


    Calvinists: Well, uh, urr, we don't know, you see,.....Ain't that good news, Uncle Jed?


    Calvinism is just warmed over Catholicism, and does not preach "good news."

    Tell us, AMR, and keep it simple, for us hillbillies, and shuck all your hi-filootin' words, that you alleged "elite, elect" scholarly types employ, to fog the dialogue, issue, as that has us Acts 4:13 KJV morons, stooges, scratchin' our noggins: How do we/you know, that you are one of "the elect?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I will ignore the roll of the dice canard which incorrectly assumes that predestination of the elect is arbitrary, despite its actually being God's setting His preferences upon another for reasons known only to Him without consideration of merit.
    1. We know-Calvinists ignore most questions.

    2. Deception. Non responsive, as you spinning that it is not arbitrary from God's perspective is quite irrelevant. From man's perspective, it is a "roll of the dice," so stuff your create a moving target diversion, sophistry. That is slick, real slick....slick as an ell, slithering down a sewer pipe.


    Calvinism-Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.........
    Saint John W

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  5. #49
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    So the answer is absolutely NO the Elect can never be the workers of iniquity spoken of in Ps 5:5 because God doesn't hate the elect but Loves them, even while they're enemies and sinners, Read Rom 5:8

    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    According to scripture, sinners are workers of iniquity.

    Leviticus 5:17
    17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I will ignore the roll of the dice canard which incorrectly assumes that predestination of the elect is arbitrary, despite its actually being God's setting His preferences upon another for reasons known only to Him without consideration of merit.
    God "setting His preferences upon another for reasons known only to Him" is the very definition of arbitrary.

    arbitrary
    based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

    Learn to read what is written.

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    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Again-How does a Calvinist know that their "little ones" are not consigned to hell, i.e., that they are not one of "the elect?"
    As plainly stated above, for believing parents, their infant children dying in infancy are members of the outward covenant grace, so believing parents have much reason to hope, yet not demand, that their infant who dies in infancy is in heaven.

    For non-believing parents, the situation is more dire, and the only "hope" they may cling to is that the Lord will do right. Then again, non-believers will never make that claim. Fortunately, one thing is certain: all elect infants dying in infancy are in heaven. Of this we can be certain.

    How do you know with infallible certainty an infant is elect? You don't.

    As a parent, do what you ought to do: call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Then cling to the promise of God's covenant you have entered as a believer which thereby incorporates outwardly your infant child, giving you proper warrant to hope your infant dying in infancy is heaven bound, while leaving the matter of the certain disposition of your infant child in God's hands.

    For more:
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4988291

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post

    I suppose it depends upon how one views the death of those who die in infancy. Some assume all such infants who die in infancy are heaven bound. Others, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, assume only the elect arrive in Heaven, hence all elect infants who die in infancy go to heaven. Believing parents may hope their children—outward members of the covenant of grace within which the believing parents are members—who die in infancy are in heaven, but we may not demand it to be so.


    AMR
    Would it be inconsistent with Calvinism to say that all who die in infancy are members of the elected body?
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Would it be inconsistent with Calvinism to say that all who die in infancy are members of the elected body?
    It would be inconsistent for any
    Calvinist to claim any such supposition as
    truth, that is not plainly declared in Holy Scripture.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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  12. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Would it be inconsistent with Calvinism to say that all who die in infancy are members of the elected body?
    If I am following you correctly, it would be inconsistent.

    From the WCF, Ch. 10:


    3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit (Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, John 3:3, 5, 1 John 5:12, Rom. 8:9), who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth (John 3:8): so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word (1 John 5:12, Acts 4:12).

    In other words, not all infants who die in infancy are elect. Only elect infants are born anew and saved.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    It would be inconsistent for any
    Calvinist to claim any such supposition as
    truth, that is not plainly declared in Holy Scripture.
    I agree.

    But I find teaching in the Bible which supports it.
    Rom 9:11KJV supports the belief that those taken by abortion fall under God's special protection. (Keep in mind that these two did not die in the womb but lived lives according to God's purpose for them on earth. But here the Bible tell us that unborn children have done no evil.)
    Jonah 4:11KJV shows how God is merciful to those who are handicapped, infirm, and mentally incapable.

    If coming out of the bondage of Egypt and journeying to the promised land typifies the salvation experience, then we should take note of who God allows to pass over Jordan. He denies the adults who have angered Him but specifically exempts the children.
    Deut 1:39KJV

    In addition, we should take seriously the Lord's words concerning children.
    Mat 19:14KJV

    Calvinism does not teach that we will be judged for Adam's sin. It teaches that, being members of Adam's race, we have inherited the inability to remain sinless as Jesus did. We are incapable of reaching up unto God without His reaching down to us first. It should not surprise us that God will protect the innocent. What is surprising is that He has made a way for us, who are not innocent, to share heaven with them.

    Indeed, if our participation in the slightest way with God is required for salvation then the unborn, infants, and the incapacitated are hopelessly lost.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    If I am following you correctly, it would be inconsistent.

    From the WCF, Ch. 10:


    3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit (Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, John 3:3, 5, 1 John 5:12, Rom. 8:9), who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth (John 3:8): so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word (1 John 5:12, Acts 4:12).

    In other words, not all infants who die in infancy are elect. Only elect infants are born anew and saved.

    AMR
    Perhaps I should be clearer.
    How do we know that not all infants who die are elect?
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

  16. #57
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    According to scripture, sinners are workers of iniquity.

    Leviticus 5:17
    17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
    I never denied that the elect are sinners and work iniquity because of it. My point is that the elect arent the workers of iniquity spoken of in Ps 5:5 which workers/sinners God hates !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
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    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    I never denied that the elect are sinners and work iniquity because of it. My point is that the elect arent the workers of iniquity spoken of in Ps 5:5 which workers/sinners God hates !
    Unrepentant sinners are the workers of iniquity that God hates.
    Sinners that repent are no longer hated by God and are then eligible to become the elect.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    The condemnation of sinners came about by the offence of one man Adam Rom 5:18

    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    That man wasn't a baby, so non elect babies will be condemned for their sin in Adam a full grown man. I believe therefore all non elect condemned babies will be in the judgment changed into a full grown adult as Adam was and face their condemnation in him.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Unrepentant sinners are the workers of iniquity that God hates.
    Sinners that repent are no longer hated by God and are then eligible to become the elect.
    Again sinners Christ died for are Loved by God while theyre sinners/workers of iniquity Rom 5:8


    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners /workers of iniquity, Christ died for us.

    So they could not be the workers of iniquity God hates in Ps 5:5 thats a contradiction in God
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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