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Thread: Are Gods Elect ever the workers of iniquity ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    Wait a second, there!

    Isn't Calvinism supposed to be simply one and the same thing as the gospel? ("Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else." -C. H. Spurgeon)

    So, then, to be a Calvinist is nothing else than to be a believer of Calvinism (a.k.a. "TULIP theology"), which is nothing else than to be a believer of the gospel, no? And yet, you say, here, that "there are also Calvinists who are not [elect]." So, you are saying that "there are also [believers of the gospel] who are not [elect]"! Interesting! And, according to TULIP theology, those who aren't elect are "eternally reprobate." So, what you've handed us, here, is that "there are also [believers of the gospel] who are [eternally reprobate]."

    You speak of one, Gregory, as one "who claims he was once a Calvinist..." Are you denying what he claims? Are you affirming that he never was a Calvinist? If he was never a Calvinist, then why would you say that he is "proof" that "there are also Calvinists who are not [elect]"? How is mentioning someone who isn't--and who never has been--a Calvinist, the least bit relevant to any attempt to prove that some Calvinists are not elect? As a non-Calvinist, he could not be an example of "Calvinists who are not [elect]."

    Just because a person self identifies, it does not follow that God has chosen them.
    I believe John Calvin was an elect child of God. I expect he is in heaven before the throne of God. I also expect that there are many who self-identified and attended Reformed churches, but never knew God as their Redeemer. God never made them alive in Christ. Like many, they attempted to imitate what they never really knew. This explains the folks who grew up "calvinists" but end up atheists. People who attempt to "work" their way into heaven get exhausted and disillusioned. I see it all over TOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Just because a person self identifies, it does not follow that God has chosen them.
    I believe John Calvin was an elect child of God. I expect he is in heaven before the throne of God. I also expect that there are many who self-identified and attended Reformed churches, but never knew God as their Redeemer. God never made them alive in Christ. Like many, they attempted to imitate what they never really knew. This explains the folks who grew up "calvinists" but end up atheists. People who attempt to "work" their way into heaven get exhausted and disillusioned. I see it all over TOL.
    How do you/we know "that God has chosen" you, that you are "an elect child of God," that "God made you alive in Christ?"
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    So to say the those Christ died for are workers of iniquity, that would go against the accomplishment of Christs sacrificial death which redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14
    Are the workers of iniquity and the ungodly the same?

    Romans 5:6
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


    According to you, the Elect are the ungodly.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    The elect and those who claim to be Calvinists are two different things. While there are Calvinists who are elect, there are also Calvinists who are not. Proof of this is our TOL colleague, Gregory, who claims he was once a Calvinist, but shows no evidence of being elect.
    Let us focus on God's word, which speaks of the elect, and stop with the foolish idea that election did not exist until Calvin came along.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Are the workers of iniquity and the ungodly the same?

    Romans 5:6
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


    According to you, the Elect are the ungodly.
    Read what I posted. Start with the OP
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Just because a person self identifies, it does not follow that God has chosen them.
    I believe John Calvin was an elect child of God. I expect he is in heaven before the throne of God. I also expect that there are many who self-identified and attended Reformed churches, but never knew God as their Redeemer. God never made them alive in Christ. Like many, they attempted to imitate what they never really knew. This explains the folks who grew up "calvinists" but end up atheists. People who attempt to "work" their way into heaven get exhausted and disillusioned. I see it all over TOL.
    In your earlier post, you wrote, and I quote:

    "While there are Calvinists who are elect, there are also Calvinists who are not."

    You did not write:

    "While there are "Calvinists" who are elect, there are also "Calvinists" who are not."

    You can see the difference, right? You had not put quotes around the word Calvinists. And, when you, now, put quotes around the word Calvinists, you change your signification. By adding the quotes, you go from signifying Calvinists to signifying non-Calvinists. Needless to say, in doing so, you failed to respond to what I wrote in my previous post. I was asking you about your stance on Calvinists, not about your stance on "Calvinists."

    Again, you claimed that there are Calvinists who are not elect. And that, indeed, is an astonishing claim, inasmuch as, according to Spurgeon, at least, Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else! Again, if Calvinism is the gospel, and a Calvinist is a believer of Calvinism, then a Calvinist is a believer of the gospel. Now, in light of the claim that Calvinism is the gospel, it is clear that when you affirmed that some Calvinists are not elect, you were affirming that some believers of the gospel are not elect! Does that not strike you as astonishing?

    And, again, you claimed that someone named Gregory, contrary to what you say he claimed about himself, is not a Calvinist. And yet, this Gregory is the very person you put forward as proof that there are Calvinists who are not elect! How can a non-Calvinist be proof that there are Calvinists who are not elect?

    Can you give an example of a Calvinist, then, who is not elect? Hint: Gregory is out of the question, here, because you deny he is/was a Calvinist. You'll have to pick someone who is a Calvinist, and not someone who is a non-Calvinist.

    Oh, also, I noticed that, in what you wrote about Gregory, you were affirming that he is not elect, since you tried to put him forward as proof that there are Calvinists who are not elect.

    That is, you wrote:

    "While there are Calvinists who are elect, there are also Calvinists who are not. Proof of this is our TOL colleague, Gregory, who claims he was once a Calvinist, but shows no evidence of being elect."

    How could Gregory be proof that there are Calvinists who are not elect unless,

    1. Gregory is a Calvinist, AND
    2. Gregory is not elect?

    Now, of course, you accidentally shot down your attempted proof, that there are Calvinists who are not elect, by denying that he was ever a Calvinist. But, in trying to use him as proof that there are Calvinists who are not elect, you are also affirming that Gregory is not elect. And, note well, you're not merely saying that he "shows no evidence of being elect," but, you're actually affirming that he is not elect. And, of course, claiming that so-and-so is not elect is one and the same as claiming that he/she is what TULIP theology styles eternally reprobate. Now, to claim that so-and-so is eternally reprobate is a faux pas, is it not?

    If you reread, carefully enough, what I wrote in my previous post--and, indeed, what you, yourself, wrote in your own post to which I was responding--you should be able to understand that my questions/objections to what you wrote have nothing whatsoever to do with how so-and-so self-identifies, or whether or not somebody went to a Reformed church, or John Calvin's life story, or people becoming atheists.

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    7djengo7 wrote:
    (quote)
    "While there are Calvinists who are elect, there are also Calvinists who are not."

    You did not write:

    "While there are "Calvinists" who are elect, there are also "Calvinists" who are not." (end quote)

    I'm sorry... what's the difference. Just the quotes?

    Calvinists is a term given to a group with a particular teaching they share in their churches. Not everyone who attends that church is saved. No one ever said they would be. You seem to be running down a rabbit hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post

    Calvinists is a term given to a group with a particular teaching they share in their churches. Not everyone who attends that church is saved.
    So, you disagree with Spurgeon? He says Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. What do you say? Is Calvinism the gospel, or is Calvinism not the gospel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, you disagree with Spurgeon? He says Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. What do you say? Is Calvinism the gospel, or is Calvinism not the gospel?
    Are you incapable of differentiating a person who is going to a Reformed church from someone who is elect?
    Not every person who self identifies as a Calvinist is saved. But, John Calvin's message about salvation is God's message in the Bible.
    Where is the stumbling block in your understanding, 7djengo7? It seems you are struggling with God's Sovereignty, but I am not sure why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Are you incapable of differentiating a person who is going to a Reformed church from someone who is elect?
    Not every person who self identifies as a Calvinist is saved. But, John Calvin's message about salvation is God's message in the Bible.
    Where is the stumbling block in your understanding, 7djengo7? It seems you are struggling with God's Sovereignty, but I am not sure why.
    In other words, you are simply going to stonewall against every question that I have asked you. It seems you are struggling with answering even one simple question about your own ideology, and I am sure why. And, I see that you have a little set of prefab, meaningless responses to hand me whenever I ask a simple question. I asked a simple question: Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no? Spurgeon said it is. I assume you've heard of him.

    So, again:

    Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no?

    The only acceptable response from you to this question will be to say either

    1. Yes (Calvinism is the gospel),

    OR

    2. No (Calvinism is not the gospel).

    Is Calvinism the gospel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    In other words, you are simply going to stonewall against every question that I have asked you. It seems you are struggling with answering even one simple question about your own ideology, and I am sure why. And, I see that you have a little set of prefab, meaningless responses to hand me whenever I ask a simple question. I asked a simple question: Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no? Spurgeon said it is. I assume you've heard of him.

    So, again:

    Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no?

    The only acceptable response from you to this question will be to say either

    1. Yes (Calvinism is the gospel),

    OR

    2. No (Calvinism is not the gospel).

    Is Calvinism the gospel?
    I have answered every question. You do not comprehend that I have answered.
    What Calvin taught about salvation is what the Bible teaches. Calvin merely wrote what he observed in scripture.
    Not everyone who self identifies as a Calvinist is saved. They may agree, academically, but God has not made them alive in Christ.
    What does Ephesians 2:1-10 tell us?

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    Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    I have answered every question. You do not comprehend that I have answered.
    What Calvin taught about salvation is what the Bible teaches. Calvin merely wrote what he observed in scripture.
    Not everyone who self identifies as a Calvinist is saved. They may agree, academically, but God has not made them alive in Christ.
    What does Ephesians 2:1-10 tell us?
    You lie. I just asked you a simple yes-or-no question: Is Calvinism the gospel?
    You did not answer it, and instead, you straightaway lied and said "I have answered every question."

    Why are you so opposed to answering the question? Why is it so dreadful for you to say either that Calvinism is the gospel, or that Calvinism is not the gospel? Why must you lie, saying that you've answered the question? Do you think you are fooling me?

    Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no?
    Last edited by 7djengo7; October 8th, 2018 at 07:42 PM. Reason: forgot to include quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    So, you disagree with Spurgeon? He says Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. What do you say? Is Calvinism the gospel, or is Calvinism not the gospel?
    God's word is God's word. Calvin correctly observes God's word.
    Do you think Calvin incorrectly observed God's word? If so, show a passage in God's word that you think he incorrectly observed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7djengo7 View Post
    You lie. I just asked you a simple yes-or-no question: Is Calvinism the gospel?
    You did not answer it, and instead, you straightaway lied and said "I have answered every question."

    Why are you so opposed to answering the question? Why is it so dreadful for you to say either that Calvinism is the gospel, or that Calvinism is not the gospel? Why must you lie, saying that you've answered the question? Do you think you are fooling me?

    Is Calvinism the gospel? Yes or no?
    The gospel is the gospel. Calvin correctly observed the gospel as stated in God's word.
    You are asking an ignorant question, 7djengo7. I cannot change your ignorance.

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