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Thread: Gun Control History

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am sure The Barbarian will not provide any justification for his idea that wearing jeans to school can create school shooters.
    To be fair, he didn't suggest causation. I think he was trying to imply that correlation does not mean causation with drugs.

    Of course, his obtuse communication style just opened himself up.

    Blablaman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I am sure The Barbarian will not provide any justification for his idea that wearing jeans to school can create school shooters.
    Stipe, as usual, missed the point, which is that correlation does not mean causation. So, the fact that school shooting is highly correlated with wearing jeans, that does not mean that wearing jeans causes school shootings.

    That comment was in regard to some person ignorantly supposing that such correlations actually prove something.

    If this is a mystery to you, perhaps this would help:


    Troubled students sometimes commit murder, and troubled students are often given psychoactive drugs. Likewise, troubled students often have discipline records. You could say, with equal reasonableness (or lack of reasonableness) that school discipline causes school shootings.

    This is so obvious, that anyone with an open mind and normal intelligence would understand it.

    Edit: I see Stipe has amended his error. They were wrong about you, Stipe. You are capable of learning. Hopefully, GO will be able to figure it out, too.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I see Stipe has amended his error.


    Blablaman.

    What are the side-effects of wearing jeans, numbskull?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The fact that school shooting is highly correlated with wearing jeans, that does not mean that wearing jeans causes school shootings.

    That comment was in regard to some person ignorantly supposing that such correlations actually prove something.
    Nope. GO uses evidence, not a reliance on correlation.

    Side-effects, remember?

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    We don't have a list of the drugs given to him at the mental health facility he had previously been in and the side effects that happen when you stop taking psychiatric drugs are more likely the cause of the homicidal thoughts than the side effects of a drug you are taking.

    You did miss these side effects of Zoloft:
    • Abnormal thoughts
    • Delusions
    • Hostility
    • Psychotic episodes
    • Violent behavior

    I listed the most common. there are 80 other side effects aside from thee.

    does zolft cause all the side effects listed? no. Side effects for any medication will include any reported side effect in that medication's drug class and there are close to 20 SSRIs so any side effect reported for any of these, even if it is just by one person one time in the last 40 years it is listed as a side effect. That is why side effect lists are so long and often so ridiculous.

  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    To be fair, he didn't suggest causation. I think he was trying to imply that correlation does not mean causation with drugs.
    Trying to use statistical correlation as if it is causation would lead to a lot of false conclusions.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Stipe, as usual, missed the point, which is that correlation does not mean causation.
    You may have posted this before reading Stripe stating the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Edit: I see Stipe has amended his error. They were wrong about you, Stipe. You are capable of learning. Hopefully, GO will be able to figure it out, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That comment was in regard to some person ignorantly supposing that such correlations actually prove something.
    Like the false conclusion that CO2 "causes" global warming?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Troubled students sometimes commit murder, and troubled students are often given psychoactive drugs. Likewise, troubled students often have discipline records. You could say, with equal reasonableness (or lack of reasonableness) that school discipline causes school shootings.

    This is so obvious, that anyone with an open mind and normal intelligence would understand it.
    You would have a point if you were thinking that I was relying on statistics instead of on the stated side-effects of psychiatric drugs.

    Drugs That Trigger Violent Behavior
    Violence as a drug side effect seems preposterous to patients, pharmacists, physicians and even juries. Trying to use the “Prozac defense” to justify killing or even hurting someone is often met with scorn.
    Although drug-induced hostility or aggression has not been well studied, a surprising number of medications come with precautions about violent acts.
    Antidepressant prescribing information, for example, warns physicians that, “All patients being treated with antidepressants for any indication should be monitored appropriately and observed closely for clinical worsening, suicidality, and unusual changes in behavior…” Drugs such as citalopram (Celexa), escitalopram (Lexapro), fluoxetine (Prozac), paroxetine (Paxil) and sertraline (Zoloft) carry warnings about aggressiveness, agitation, hostility, impulsivity and irritability.

    There are people studying the effect that are finding out that violence is being caused by antidepressants.

    Violence Caused by Antidepressants: An Update after Munich
    The Most Definite Study
    Several years after the publication of the new FDA warnings, Thomas Moore and his colleagues (2010) reviewed all adverse reports sent to the FDA from 2004-2009. Their reviewed showed that the vast majority of drugs (84.7%) have two of fewer reports of violence. By contrast, a few drug classes — antidepressants, stimulants, benzodiazepines, and atypical antipsychotics — have a disproportionately larger number. The differences remain when the number of prescriptions are factored into the statistical analyses (p<0.01).
    It’s not the patient’s “mental illness” that causes violence, it’s the drugs. Six of the 31 drugs associated with violence in Tom Moore’s study are not routinely prescribed for psychiatric disorders. Remarkably, by far the most dangerous drug for causing violence is Chantix (varenicline), an aid for stopping smoking. Similarly, the fifth drug is Lariam (mefloquine), an antimalarial drug, made infamous because it was taken by U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales when he massacred Afghan noncombatants. The FDA label for Lariam states, “Mefloquine may cause psychiatric symptoms in a number of patients, ranging from anxiety, paranoia, and depression to hallucinations and psychotic behavior.” Not all psychiatric drugs are associated with violence and several non-psychiatric drugs are highly associated with violence. The data proves that the violence is associated with the class of drug and not the condition of the patient.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Nope. GO uses evidence, not a reliance on correlation.

    Side-effects, remember?
    That's a testable claim. To establish it, you'd have to compare troubled kids who were put on meds, with the same sort of kids not receiving medication. Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.

    Again, your belief assumes that correlation is causation. Troubled kids tend to be put on psychoactive drugs. Troubled kids tend to be disciplined by schools. Troubled kids tend to become violent. The correlation in these cases does not mean that either of these things cause violence.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    I listed the most common. there are 80 other side effects aside from thee.

    does zolft cause all the side effects listed? no. Side effects for any medication will include any reported side effect in that medication's drug class and there are close to 20 SSRIs so any side effect reported for any of these, even if it is just by one person one time in the last 40 years it is listed as a side effect. That is why side effect lists are so long and often so ridiculous.
    Unfortunately for your argument, the side-effects I am talking about are being proven in clinical trials and are being reported by many people, not just one time in 40 years.

    The Proven Dangers of Antidepressants
    While stopping short of concluding the antidepressants definitely cause suicide, the FDA warned that they might do so in a small percentage of children and adults. In the debate over drug-induced suicide, little attention has been given to the FDA’s additional warning that certain behaviors are “known to be associated with these drugs,” including “anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, impulsivity, akathisia (severe restlessness), hypomania, and mania.”

    From agitation and hostility to impulsivity and mania, the FDA’s litany of antidepressant-induced behaviors is identical to that of PCP, methamphetamine and cocaine—drugs known to cause aggression and violence. These older stimulants and most of the newer antidepressants cause similar effects as a result of their impact on a neurotransmitter in the brain called serotonin.

    For more than a decade, I have documented in books and scientific reports how this stimulation or activation profile can lead to out-of-control behavior, including violence. Indeed, the FDA’s conclusions seem drawn from my recent detailed review of Breggin Antidepressant Column, p. 2 studies pertaining to abnormal behavior produced by

    the newer antidepressants: “Suicidality, violence and mania caused by selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs): A review and analysis” published in the International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 16: 31-49, 2003/2004 (The complete text of the peer-reviewed article appears on this website). I made a similar analysis in my most recent book on the subject, The Antidepressant Fact Book (2002, Perseus Books).

    As a psychiatrist and as a medical expert, I have examined dozens of cases of individuals who have committed suicide or violent crimes while under the influence of the newer antidepressants such as Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox and Celexa. In June in South Carolina, Christopher Pittman will go on trial for shooting his grandparents to death while they slept. Chris was twelve when his family doctor started him on Zoloft.

    Three weeks later the doctor doubled his dose and one week later Chris committed the violent acts. In other cases, a fourteen-year-old girl on Prozac fired a pistol pointblank at a friend but the gun failed to go off, and a teenage boy on Zoloft beat to death an elderly woman who complained to him about his loud music. A greater number of cases involve adults who lost control of themselves while taking antidepressants. In at least two cases judges have found individuals not guilty on the basis of involuntary intoxication with psychiatric drugs and other cases have resulted in reduced charges, lesser convictions, or shortened sentences.

    The FDA includes mania in its list of known antidepressant effects. Manic individuals can become violent, especially when they are thwarted, and they can also “crash” into depression and suicidal states. They can carry out elaborate but grandiose and doomed plans. One clinical trial showed a rate of 6% manic reactions for depressed Breggin Antidepressant Column, p. 3 children on Prozac. None developed mania on a sugar pill.

    Even in short-term clinical trials, 1% or more of depressed adults develop mania compared to a small fraction on the sugar pill.
    Learn to read what is written.

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  12. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That's a testable claim. To establish it, you'd have to compare troubled kids who were put on meds, with the same sort of kids not receiving medication. Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.
    You guessed wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Again, your belief assumes that correlation is causation. Troubled kids tend to be put on psychoactive drugs. Troubled kids tend to be disciplined by schools. Troubled kids tend to become violent. The correlation in these cases does not mean that either of these things cause violence.
    Maybe that is why they use double blind clinical trials to identify side-effects?
    Learn to read what is written.

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  13. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That's a testable claim.
    Yep. It's called science

    butTostablish it, you'd have to compare troubled kids who were put on meds, with the same sort of kids not receiving medication.
    It's called double-blind testing.

    Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.
    Who knows?

    Who knows if I even agree with GO's assertions. You got embarrassed again and are looking to drag out anything to cover yourself.

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    Barbarian observes:
    That's a testable claim. To establish it, you'd have to compare troubled kids who were put on meds, with the same sort of kids not receiving medication. Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.

    GO exclaims:
    You guessed wrong.
    But you can't show us the data? How unfortunate.

    Barbarian observes:
    Again, your belief assumes that correlation is causation. Troubled kids tend to be put on psychoactive drugs. Troubled kids tend to be disciplined by schools. Troubled kids tend to become violent. The correlation in these cases does not mean that either of these things cause violence.

    Maybe that is why they use double blind clinical trials to identify side-effects?
    Show us that, WRT school shootings. What do you have?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  16. #27
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    Barbarian observes:
    That's a testable claim.

    Stipe admits:
    Yep. It's called science
    As I taught you earlier, predictions are what matters in science. So testable claims are required for science.

    Barbarian observes:
    Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.

    [quote}Who knows?[/quote]

    I don't think anyone does. GO has a firm belief, but apparently no statistically valid data to confirm it.

    Who knows if I even agree with GO's assertions.
    You often don't know what you think, judging by your posts. You got embarrassed again and are projecting once more to cover yourself.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  17. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian lies:As I taught you earlier, predictions are what matters in science.


    You're such a muddlehead.

    Testable claims are required for science.
    Since you just got finished admitting GO's assertions are testable, it's uncertain exactly what your problem is.

    Methinks you've blundered your way into a dead-end alley and can't find reverse.

    Blablaman

    Barbarian observes:Given the nature of FDA approval (which generally is over-kill), I'm guessing the data don't support your belief.uote}Who knows?[quoe] don't think anyone does. GO has a firm belief, but apparently no statistically valid data to confirm it.You often don't know what you think, judging by your posts. You got embarrassed again and are projecting once more to cover yourself.
    Last edited by Stripe; March 14th, 2018 at 02:06 AM.

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  19. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    But you can't show us the data? How unfortunate.
    You seem to have made up your mind against the data I already showed. How moronic.

    When are you going to post any information showing the known side effects of wearing jeans to school?
    Learn to read what is written.

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  20. #30
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    Barbarian reminds Stipe that he learned predictions are what matter in science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    You're such a muddlehead.
    (Stipe's upset and calling names, again)

    Since you just got finished admitting GO's assertions are testable
    Hence a predictiction, which as I taught you, is what matters in science. Testable predictions can be examined and determined to be right or wrong. What GO lacks is evidence to support his claim.

    it's uncertain exactly what your problem is.
    It's uncertain to you,because you're missing the last part. Testable claims are hypotheses; maybe right, maybe wrong. But they have no validity until tested and confirmed. That's what he's lacking for his idea. No one so far, can demonstrated he's right. He could argue with equal validity that discipline causes school shootings.

    Methinks you've blundered your way into a dead-end alley and can't find reverse.
    That's because you're still trying to get your head around the way it works. But you have learned that predictions are what matter in science, so you're making progress. Well done, Stipe.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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