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Thread: The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

  1. #3451
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I don't know about any of the flat earthers but you've piqued my interest. What's your argument?
    There are many so-called proofs that are never accepted by flat-earthers because there are objections that they think are reasonable to each of them. But this one has no objection that even they can be comfortable with.

    The sun moves, in our sky, it's own arc diameter at precisely the same amount of time.

    In other words, how long does it take for the sun to move the distance of it's apparent diameter in the sky? And is it the same at noon as it is at 2 or 4 or any other time? This experiment can be done by anyone in their own backyard if they don't believe anyone else. You don't have to go up in a spaceship to see the curvature or investigate mirages or any of the other stupidity that they engage in.
    It is roughly 2 minutes depending on where you are located. But the key is that it is identical and constant. It is roughly 1/2 of a degree of movement.

    No flat-earth model can account for this phenomena. Only a heliocentric model does.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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  3. #3452
    Body part Right Divider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    There are many so-called proofs that are never accepted by flat-earthers because there are objections that they think are reasonable to each of them. But this one has no objection that even they can be comfortable with.

    The sun moves, in our sky, it's own arc diameter at precisely the same amount of time.

    In other words, how long does it take for the sun to move the distance of it's apparent diameter in the sky? And is it the same at noon as it is at 2 or 4 or any other time? This experiment can be done by anyone in their own backyard if they don't believe anyone else. You don't have to go up in a spaceship to see the curvature or investigate mirages or any of the other stupidity that they engage in.
    It is roughly 2 minutes depending on where you are located. But the key is that it is identical and constant. It is roughly 1/2 of a degree of movement.

    No flat-earth model can account for this phenomena. Only a heliocentric model does.
    The simpler way to say this is that the apparent size of the sun is the same all day long.

    The FE's will show over-saturated videos in an attempt to refute this simple fact. They will also scream "perspective" until they're blue in the face (while not even understanding how perspective works).

    It's a clown parade.
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    That explains why your an idiot.
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    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
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    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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  5. #3453
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    There are many so-called proofs that are never accepted by flat-earthers because there are objections that they think are reasonable to each of them. But this one has no objection that even they can be comfortable with.

    The sun moves, in our sky, it's own arc diameter at precisely the same amount of time.

    In other words, how long does it take for the sun to move the distance of it's apparent diameter in the sky? And is it the same at noon as it is at 2 or 4 or any other time? This experiment can be done by anyone in their own backyard if they don't believe anyone else. You don't have to go up in a spaceship to see the curvature or investigate mirages or any of the other stupidity that they engage in.
    It is roughly 2 minutes depending on where you are located. But the key is that it is identical and constant. It is roughly 1/2 of a degree of movement.

    No flat-earth model can account for this phenomena. Only a heliocentric model does.
    Okay, so let me make sure I understand this argument.

    You're saying that, for a particular observer (i.e. location), the length of time that it takes the sun to move an apparent distance across the sky that is equal to it's apparent size is the same no matter where the sun is in the sky.

    That much I understand but the apparent size of the sun does not change appreciably from one part of the day to another. The Sun seem bigger at sunrise and sunset because your brain interprets what it's seeing and thinks the Sun is closer near the horizon than it appears to be at mid-day and so your brain says close = bigger but it's just an illusion. The apparent size of the sun (or moon) is pretty much exactly the same when it rises as it at noon. All that to say this, the apparent size of the Sun does not seem to be relevant to the argument. Pick any time of day and any arbitrary number of degrees of movement and the argument is that the Sun covers that amount of distance at the same rate, regardless of what time it is.

    Does that sound right to you?

    If so, then the next question is how does that disprove a flat Earth? In other words, what would one expect to see if the Earth was flat and why?

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  7. #3454
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The simpler way to say this is that the apparent size of the sun is the same all day long.

    The FE's will show over-saturated videos in an attempt to refute this simple fact. They will also scream "perspective" until they're blue in the face (while not even understanding how perspective works).

    It's a clown parade.
    No, I don't think that's what he's arguing. See my previous post.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    No, I don't think that's what he's arguing. See my previous post.
    I'm pretty sure that was what he was saying.

    The sun moving its own diameter per the same unit time all day long is the same as saying that its apparent size is the same all day long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

  10. #3456
    TOL Subscriber George Affleck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Okay, so let me make sure I understand this argument.

    You're saying that, for a particular observer (i.e. location), the length of time that it takes the sun to move an apparent distance across the sky that is equal to it's apparent size is the same no matter where the sun is in the sky.
    That is exactly the observable fact. Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    That much I understand but the apparent size of the sun does not change appreciably from one part of the day to another. The Sun seem bigger at sunrise and sunset because your brain interprets what it's seeing and thinks the Sun is closer near the horizon than it appears to be at mid-day and so your brain says close = bigger but it's just an illusion. The apparent size of the sun (or moon) is pretty much exactly the same when it rises as it at noon. All that to say this, the apparent size of the Sun does not seem to be relevant to the argument. Pick any time of day and any arbitrary number of degrees of movement and the argument is that the Sun covers that amount of distance at the same rate, regardless of what time it is.

    Does that sound right to you?
    This is a related but separate arguement that is also true but I don't think is as convincing as the first. It is for me, but flat-earthers will talk about the sun appearing different sizes throughout the day. Their arguments about this are not true, but they think they have an answer. For the arc-diameter argument they have no answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    If so, then the next question is how does that disprove a flat Earth? In other words, what would one expect to see if the Earth was flat and why?
    In all flat-earth scenarios, the time for the sun to move one arc-diameter would increase through the morning and decrease in the afternoon because it would be moving toward or away from the observer. It would not be constant.

    It is important to do this calculation when the sun is not near the horizon where it is subject to the lensing effect of the atmosphere which is negligible a few hours after sunrise and before sunset.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I'm pretty sure that was what he was saying.

    The sun moving its own diameter per the same unit time all day long is the same as saying that its apparent size is the same all day long.
    No, it's saying that whether it changes or not, the time it takes to travel one arc diameter remains the same. In effect, it implies that the Sun slows its apparaent speed with a reduction of it's apparent size. That's why I asked him what I did. The fact that the Sun's apparent size does remain the same throughout the day seems to force a modification to his argument.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    They'll go, they'll figure out that they were wrong and it won't convince ANYONE who didn't go with them.

    They'll either fade into obscurity and be forotten (ignored) by the flat earthers or they'll be turned into villians who were never really flat earthers to begin with but where really NASA plants who only showed up to create more disinformation (or some variant of that) or else they will come back and lie.

    The article discusses a recent expedition that has already been done with constant coordinate updates and everything and instead of being convinced they all deny the existence of any evidence that the expedition actually took place - including the continuous cooridinate updates. These people are insane. They cannot be convinced by anything rational.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  17. #3460
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    On Wednesday, March 20, 2019, at 5:58 p.m. ET we all have a chance to prove once and for all that the Earth is not only not flat but that it is, in fact, spherical in shape.

    That's right every single person on this thread along with ever single person who belongs to any Flat Earth Society, Group or Association along with every other person on the planet who has a clear sky tomorrow will witness the Sun rise due Ease and set due West of their location. It doesn't matter whether you're in Florida, Main, Oklahoma or New Mexico. It matters not whether you're in the U.S. or Mexico, Chile, France, Russia, Egypt or South Africa. You can be on the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, the Indian Ocean or on Lake Fork near Dallas, TX. You pick the spot - any spot - and if the Sun rises or sets in that location then it will rise due East and set due West of your location.

    This cannot happen on a planet that is a flat disk or a flat anything for that matter. It cannot occur any shape of a planet other than one that is round and who's Sun is very far away.

    I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have cloudy skies but if not then I'll be taking photos of the sunrise and sunset tomorrow with the same app that we used before to record the position of the Sun.
    Look up the precise time of sunrise and sunset for your specific location and take the same photos and we can all post them here. They should all be due East/West, within a quite small margin of error.

    Clete

    P.S. The app is call Spyglass and is available at the App store.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  19. #3461
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Okay, so it turned out that I had a really nicely clear sky this morning. Not that it turned out to matter much because things aren't exactly flat where I'm located and so my horizon is slightly elevated above what it would be if I was looking out over several miles of water but, nevertheless, I did get some good data with the Spyglass App on my iPhone.

    First, I'll post a screen shot of what was reported to me as being the "official" Sunrise time for my location.
    Notice on this first image that while some website I went to said that Sunrise was at 7:25:16 for my location, it turns out that it actually wasn't. The Sun is still 1.1° below the horizon...

    Sunrise190320 (Official).jpg



    Next is a screen shot of when the Sun crossed 90° East. Notice that at this point the Sun is a mere .3° below the horizon at my location (that's less than one apparent solar diameter, which is .5°) ...

    Sunrise 190320 (90° East).jpg




    Last is a screen shot of when the Sun actually got to the horizon line. So here we see the Sun at 0.0° above the horizon and it is at 90.2° East....

    Sunrise 190320 (Horizon).jpg

    Now, keep in mind that the actual equinox does not occur until 4:58pm Central Time (That's 21:58 UTC) and so that accounts for why the Sun was at 90.2° East when it crossed the horizon this morning. I'll take some more images this evening and the sunset should be even closer to due West than the sunrise was to due East.

    We should also keep in mind that there is some disagreement about when sunrise actually happens. Is it when the first glimpse of the Sun peaks above the horizon or is it when the midpoint of the Sun's disk touches the horizon or is it when the whole disk of the Sun is visible above the horizon. Also given the refraction that happens due to the atmosphere, it's rather hard to pin down precisely when any of those three things happen.

    BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER!

    Picking nits over those kinds of details is not relevant to the point here. The point is that every single person on this entire planet would have gotten very similar numbers this morning. It absolutely does not matter how far North or South you are at all and the only way in which your East and West position matters is that those who happen to be at a location where the Sun rises or sets at 21:59 UTC are really going to have the Sun rise or set absolutely dead smack on the due East or due West direction. For everyone else, the difference is to small to notice without very precise equipment.

    This is absolute proof, and I'm mean that literally, it is absolute PROOF that the Earth IS NOT FLAT! In fact, it is not only proof that the Earth cannot be flat but it is proof that the Earth is a sphere and that the Sun is very far away.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; March 20th, 2019 at 09:46 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  21. #3462
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    For those of you who are Christians and who hold to this nonsensical idea that the Earth is flat, in spite of the several indisputable proofs that have been presented in this thread, I would like to ask you to consider just why you refuse to allow plain reason to persuade your mind. I'm not interested in having you present an answer to that question to me. The question is for your own consideration and benefit.

    These are not matters of opinion. This is not a debate akin to whether you prefer a traditional worship service or a more contemporary style of Sunday mornings services. There are plenty of well meaning and very thoughtful and rational people on both sides of that issue and neither side is right or wrong in any absolute sense. That's because your preferred style of worship is an opinion. It may be more weighty than whether you like the taste of peas or whether you like your fried eggs sunny side up or otherwise but it is still, more or less, a matter of opinion.

    Whether the Earth is flat, however, is not a matter of opinion at all. The Earth is either flat or it is not. Opinion simply does not come into it. You can be on one side or the other of the debate but regardless of which side you take you can only either be right or wrong. There is no inbetween. This is known as the law of excluded middle. It is a fundamental fact of reality that any truth claim is either true or it false and cannot be both at the same time and in the same way. This even applies to opinions! It is either true or it is false that I think that coffee tastes like poison. Someone else may disagree with my assessment of coffee's flavor but it doesn't change the fact that I think it tastes like I just committed suicide by having swallowed it.

    Now, the shape of the Earth is a matter of fact and as such, there will be certain observable characteristics that we can use to test to see whether it is one shape or another. If this kind of thinking does not work then there is no way to know anything and by calling such thinking into question you undermine everything else you claim is real, not the least of which is the existence of God and the death, burial and resurrection of His Son, which is no less than the totality of the Christian faith!

    And so, I ask you again, why do you not permit the application of clearly understandable logic and reason to persuade your mind? What is it that you think you're protecting? It isn't the Christian faith! It isn't the Bible! It isn't the honor of your Lord and Savior! On the contrary! It is just the exact opposite of that. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Is the truth contradictory? Is the truth irrational? Certainly not! The laws of logic and reason exist precisely because of God’s rational nature! Indeed they are His nature!

    Never does God admonish us to turn off our minds, to stop thinking and simply believe something mindlessly. On the contrary, God says to us “Come now, and let us reason together." In fact, when the author of Hebrews defines faith for us, what concepts does he employ? Mindlessness? Belief without evidence? NO! Just the opposite! Faith is all about substantive evidence and, more specifically, it is our response to that evidence, our willingness to be persuaded by the evidence that is all around us and, perhaps most importantly in this context, it is the willful rejection of that evidence that condemns the ungodly.

    Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


    For those who have read this post and remain unconvinced that a rejection of sound reason and logic is a rejection of God Himself and the whole of the Christian faith, I urge you to read the following article. Perhaps hearing it from someone other than me will help get it to penetrate.

    The Nature & Necessity of Logic

    by Craig S. Hawkins


    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; Yesterday at 07:04 AM.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Bright Raven's Avatar
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    So is this a lie?
    Charles Duke watched from Mission Control in Houston when his fellow NASA astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin made their historic Moon landing on July 20, 1969. Less than three years later he followed in their footsteps as the Apollo 16 lunar module pilot.

    The module carrying Duke and Apollo 16 Commander John Young reached the lunar surface on April 20, 1972. At 36 years and 201 days old, Duke became the youngest person to walk on the Moon and the tenth to reach Earth’s natural satellite.

    Duke had been the CapCom (capsule communicator) for Apollo 11, serving as the link between NASA flight controllers in Houston and Armstrong, Aldrin and Michael Collins in the Apollo 11 spacecraft when they traveled to the Moon.

    'IT WAS VERY CLOSE TO AN ABORT': HOW THE NERVE-WRACKING FINAL SECONDS OF THE APOLLO 11 MOON LANDING UNFOLDED

    Finally seeing the lunar surface up close was incredible, Duke told Fox News, during a New York City event hosted by lens maker Zeiss on Friday.

    A portrait of Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke. (NASA)
    A portrait of Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke. (NASA)
    “In flight, you get the dynamics, you get the visual cues, you get the wonder of what you’re doing,” he said. “But, of course, actually stepping on and walking on the Moon was a lot more exciting than Mission Control because of the visuals, the visual stimulation that you get. Your ‘wonder, awe, excitement’ – all of these emotions and all just rolled into one.”

    “Probably the most dynamic part of the mission was the landing,” he added. “You’re coming into an area that you have never seen before and there are a lot of features on the lunar surface that were visible, visually, when you came in, but we hadn’t seen in our photographs.”

    ASTRONAUT DESCRIBES WATCHING THE MOON LANDING WITH PRESIDENT NIXON IN THE WHITE HOUSE

    Apollo 16 was the only NASA mission to target the “lunar highlands,” an area in the Moon’s southeast quadrant with hilly and grooved terrain, according to the space agency.

    Duke examines the surface of a large lunar boulder during the Apollo 16 mission. (NASA)
    Duke examines the surface of a large lunar boulder during the Apollo 16 mission. (NASA)
    The Apollo 16 lunar module spent 71 hours, 2 minutes and 13 seconds on the surface of the Moon. During their visit, Duke and Young explored the region in a Lunar Roving Vehicle, conducted science experiments and collected rock samples.

    The pair became part of a very exclusive group - only 12 people have walked on the Moon.

    'THERE WAS A BIT OF TENSION': ASTRONAUT DESCRIBES WATCHING MOON LANDING WITH BUZZ ALDRIN’S FAMILY

    Duke told Fox News that he was humbled to be chosen as an astronaut. The Air Force pilot was one of 19 pilots selected in April 1966 as part of NASA’s fifth group of astronauts.

    Charles Duke was the tenth person to walk on the Moon. (NASA)
    Charles Duke was the tenth person to walk on the Moon. (NASA)
    “You were humbled that you got selected and you were honored that you got selected, that the United States is trusting you to fly this multi-million-dollar spacecraft and do a job and bring back some science knowledge and information,” he told Fox News.

    Earth’s natural satellite continues to be a source of fascination.

    APOLLO 8 ASTRONAUTS RECOUNT NASA'S EPIC FIRST MISSION TO THE MOON

    There have been some high-profile unmanned lunar missions in recent months.

    Apollo 16 lifts off from Launch Complex 39, Kennedy Space Center on April 16, 1972,
    Apollo 16 lifts off from Launch Complex 39, Kennedy Space Center on April 16, 1972, (NASA)

    China, for example, recently became the first country to successfully land a spacecraft on the far side of the Moon.

    Israel’s unmanned Beresheet spacecraft was recently launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station on a historic mission to the Moon. Beresheet, which is the Hebrew word for “beginning,” is expected to land on the lunar surface on April 11. The spacecraft also will be the first private mission to reach the Moon.

    'FULL WORM SUPERMOON' LIGHTS UP THE SKY IN STUNNING PICTURES

    The U.S. also has its sights set on the Moon. President Donald Trump wants U.S. astronauts to return to the Moon as a foundation for future Mars missions and the administration has cited Moon missions as a key element of the 2019 NASA budget.

    File photo - Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke responds to a question during a live television interview on Monday, July 20, 2009, at NASA Headquarters in Washington.
    File photo - Apollo 16 astronaut Charles Duke responds to a question during a live television interview on Monday, July 20, 2009, at NASA Headquarters in Washington. (NASA/Paul E. Alers)

    In a speech last year, Vice President Mike Pence discussed plans for a Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway, a NASA orbital outpost that will be in the vicinity of the Moon. The chair of the National Space Council described the goal of putting an American on board the Lunar Orbital Platform before the end of 2024. “We’re on the cusp of a new golden age of exploration,” Pence said.

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    The U.S. is the only country to place astronauts on the Moon, having done so most recently in December 1972 during the Apollo 17 mission.

    July 20, 2019, marks the 50th anniversary of the famous Apollo 11 Moon landing.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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