# Thread: The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

1. Originally Posted by Clete
The number of miles is not the relevant number. It's the angle that matters. The angle is determine by the relative lengths of two sides of the right triangle. Get a protractor or download an app of some sort and measure 8° above the horizon and see for yourself how far it is.

It's isn't minuscule but it still rather small. It's not quite 1/11th of the way to the highest point in the sky. Certainly noticeable if you're looking for it and easily missed if you're not.

Incidentally, there would be no drop in the horizon at all if the Earth were flat. In fact, on a flat Earth there would not be any hard horizon line. Presuming there was nothing in the way, you should be able to see all the way to the "Ice Wall" with just a little help from even a modest telescope. Of course there are variables like Rayleigh scattering and other atmospheric effects that would obscure the view of distance objects but the point is that there wouldn't really be a horizon in the sense we are used to thinking of it. Things would just sort of fade into a haze in the distance rather than there ever being a hard horizon line like there is here in the real world.

In essence, every time you acknowledge that there is a horizon, you tacitly accept that the Earth is not flat.

Clete
Metabunk

Distance in Miles: 229.2 Viewer height in Feet: 35000

Results ignoring refraction
Horizon = 229.2 Miles (1210153.46 Feet)
Bulge = 1.66 Miles (8759.49 Feet)
Drop = 6.64 Miles (35060.01 Feet)
Hidden= 0 Feet (0 Inches)
Horizon Dip = 3.313 Degrees

Right Angle Triangle Calculator

Given A=13.2 and B=229.2

C = 229.58, ∠A = 3.3°, ∠B = 86.7°

Side A = 229.2 miles distance
∠A = 3.3°
rightangle2.png Side B = 13.2 miles height

These two websites agree on the angle. So at least I have the math figured out in both distance and angle, thanks.

"Things would just sort of fade into a haze in the distance rather than there ever being a hard horizon line like there is here in the real world. In essence, every time you acknowledge that there is a horizon, you tacitly accept that the Earth is not flat." --Clete
But, flat earth would argue, since the horizon dip is so miniscule the horizon is virtually at eye level, there's no looking down that we can detect. If the horizon seems at eye level and the drop is undetectable then I have no visual evidence that the earth is curved.

So, every time we see a "hard horizon line" we know the Earth is not flat. Does this mean that if there are times when we see "things just sort of fade into a haze in the distance" the earth is flat?

--Dave

2. How Boats Vanish Over the Horizon

This is going to be a difficult thing to prove because those of you who are globe earth simply will not watch any video you think is from flat earth folk. This video does not say flat earth so I think it's neutral on the subject.

Two things to notice from this video:

1. We can see the obvious choppy water line but the boat we are watching is above this line and so the water line is not the horizon line. You can see the true horizon line at 3:50 to 3:55 when you see another boat cut across the one we're following. You can see the other boat has an upside down mirrored image of it directly under it. And you can also see that the boat we are following also has a reflection directly under it. The true horizon line cuts through both boats at the same level.

2. At 18:30 of the video we can see the boat as if it's airborne as it gradually disappears into, not over, the horizon of a flat earth. The mast being the tallest part of the ship is the last part of the boat to also disappear into the horizon. Both the bottom and the top of the boat gradually vanish into the horizon. The bottom disappears first but only because the mast is taller and is the last part of the boat to vanish.

The true horizon is not visible above the choppy water line because of an inferior mirage effect. The water in the distance has become like a mirror that reflects the sky above it and is why the true horizon line is not visible because the sky and the mirrored reflection of water are the exact same color.

If this is not correct then explain what this video does show us.

--Dave

3. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
Metabunk

Distance in Miles: 229.2 Viewer height in Feet: 35000

Results ignoring refraction
Horizon = 229.2 Miles (1210153.46 Feet)
Bulge = 1.66 Miles (8759.49 Feet)
Drop = 6.64 Miles (35060.01 Feet)
Hidden= 0 Feet (0 Inches)
Horizon Dip = 3.313 Degrees

Right Angle Triangle Calculator

Given A=13.2 and B=229.2

C = 229.58, ∠A = 3.3°, ∠B = 86.7°

Side A = 229.2 miles distance
∠A = 3.3°
rightangle2.png Side B = 13.2 miles height

These two websites agree on the angle. So at least I have the math figured out in both distance and angle, thanks.

But, flat earth would argue, since the horizon dip is so miniscule the horizon is virtually at eye level, there's no looking down that we can detect.
It isn't so minuscule that it cannot be detected at all, David. It's too small to notice with the naked eye but we have instrumentation that can detect it.

Flet-Earther seem to pull this stupid trick every time they discuss nearly anything. They're either stupid enough to think that if something is too small to see with the naked eye that it's therefore to small to detect at all or they are intentionally lying about it.

If the horizon seems at eye level and the drop is undetectable then I have no visual evidence that the earth is curved.
As if horizon drop is the only visual evidence that could possibly exist.

Stupidity.

So, every time we see a "hard horizon line" we know the Earth is not flat. Does this mean that if there are times when we see "things just sort of fade into a haze in the distance" the earth is flat?

--Dave
There is no way that you thought that this was a good argument when you wrote it. If you did, it's proof of your stupidity.

Do you know an orange when you see one?

If you saw one that was purple, would you start to question whether oranges are really orange or would you accept it as an exception and maybe try to figure out what was responsible for the color change?

This sort of thing is what is meant by the saying, "The exception proves the rule." You cannot except outlying data to over rule the norm. The fact is that there is always a hard horizon line unless there is something obscuring it. Rain or fog or any other atmospheric condition that obscures the horizon does not provide any evidence that the horizon isn't there. The fact that it is there is PROOF that the Earth CANNOT BE FLAT because if it were flat, the situation would be completely reversed and there would pretty much never ever be a hard horizon line (the only exception I can think of is the crest of a hill or mountain).

I seriously cannot understand how you can tolerate this level of stupidity and take it seriously for even one half of a second. It's just asinine.

Clete

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5. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave

How Boats Vanish Over the Horizon

This is going to be a difficult thing to prove because those of you who are globe earth simply will not watch any video you think is from flat earth folk. This video does not say flat earth so I think it's neutral on the subject.

Two things to notice from this video:

1. We can see the obvious choppy water line but the boat we are watching is above this line and so the water line is not the horizon line. You can see the true horizon line at 3:50 to 3:55 when you see another boat cut across the one we're following. You can see the other boat has an upside down mirrored image of it directly under it. And you can also see that the boat we are following also has a reflection directly under it. The true horizon line cuts through both boats at the same level.

2. At 18:30 of the video we can see the boat as if it's airborne as it gradually disappears into, not over, the horizon of a flat earth. The mast being the tallest part of the ship is the last part of the boat to also disappear into the horizon. Both the bottom and the top of the boat gradually vanish into the horizon. The bottom disappears first but only because the mast is taller and is the last part of the boat to vanish.

The true horizon is not visible above the choppy water line because of an inferior mirage effect. The water in the distance has become like a mirror that reflects the sky above it and is why the true horizon line is not visible because the sky and the mirrored reflection of water are the exact same color.

If this is not correct then explain what this video does show us.

--Dave
I for one will not be watching any videos longer than a few seconds long and I also am not willing to discuss anomalous examples of ships appearing to do weird things on the horizon. Besides, aside from the already explained atmospheric distortions of light right at the edge of the horizon, the ship vanishes over the horizon exactly as expected - from the bottom up. There is no explanation for this if the Earth is flat. It simply would not do that at all. It would just get smaller and smaller and smaller, just as it had until it got to the horizon.

The exception proves the rule, David. Discuss the norm as though it's the norm and exceptions to the norm as though they are exceptions. If you do this one simple common sense thing, you'll drop this flat-Earth stupidity.

What happened to putting your graphic arts talent to work? That sounded like a terrific idea. Going back to the dark abyss of YouTube stupidity is going to drive me insane.

Clete

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7. Originally Posted by Clete

It isn't so minuscule that it cannot be detected at all, David. It's too small to notice with the naked eye but we have instrumentation that can detect it.

Flet-Earther seem to pull this stupid trick every time they discuss nearly anything. They're either stupid enough to think that if something is too small to see with the naked eye that it's therefore to small to detect at all or they are intentionally lying about it.

As if horizon drop is the only visual evidence that could possibly exist.

Stupidity.

There is no way that you thought that this was a good argument when you wrote it. If you did, it's proof of your stupidity.

Do you know an orange when you see one?

If you saw one that was purple, would you start to question whether oranges are really orange or would you accept it as an exception and maybe try to figure out what was responsible for the color change?

This sort of thing is what is meant by the saying, "The exception proves the rule." You cannot except outlying data to over rule the norm. The fact is that there is always a hard horizon line unless there is something obscuring it. Rain or fog or any other atmospheric condition that obscures the horizon does not provide any evidence that the horizon isn't there. The fact that it is there is PROOF that the Earth CANNOT BE FLAT because if it were flat, the situation would be completely reversed and there would pretty much never ever be a hard horizon line (the only exception I can think of is the crest of a hill or mountain).

I seriously cannot understand how you can tolerate this level of stupidity and take it seriously for even one half of a second. It's just asinine.

Clete
The only instrument that addresses the horizon is a telescope that I know of. What instrument shows a horizon is not at eye level?

So, every time we see a "hard horizon line" we know the Earth is not flat. Does this mean that if there are times when we see "things just sort of fade into a haze in the distance" the earth is flat?

I wrote this argument because it's simply the antithesis of your's. It's not stupid, it's goes to testing which view is correct. The video "How boats vanish over the horizon" demonstrates and proves my counterpoint.

--Dave

8. Originally Posted by Clete
I for one will not be watching any videos longer than a few seconds long and I also am not willing to discuss anomalous examples of ships appearing to do weird things on the horizon. Besides, aside from the already explained atmospheric distortions of light right at the edge of the horizon, the ship vanishes over the horizon exactly as expected - from the bottom up. There is no explanation for this if the Earth is flat. It simply would not do that at all. It would just get smaller and smaller and smaller, just as it had until it got to the horizon.

The exception proves the rule, David. Discuss the norm as though it's the norm and exceptions to the norm as though they are exceptions. If you do this one simple common sense thing, you'll drop this flat-Earth stupidity.

What happened to putting your graphic arts talent to work? That sounded like a terrific idea. Going back to the dark abyss of YouTube stupidity is going to drive me insane.

Clete
The ship does not go over the horizon. It disappears into the horizon, the mast simply disappears last because of its height.

All globe earth arguments say we can't see the curve but we can see ships go over the curve/horizon. This is not the only video that shows ships disappearing into the horizon.

--Dave

9. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
... It disappears into the horizon, the mast simply disappears last because of its height.

...
Dave, this is exactly the point. Why would the mast disappear last on a flat earth? Its height should not make a difference on a flat earth.

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11. Originally Posted by chair
Dave, this is exactly the point. Why would the mast disappear last on a flat earth? Its height should not make a difference on a flat earth.
We are not just seeing the ship disappear, we see it's reflection underneath it disappear with it. The ship disappears from top of mast to bottom of reflected mast in perfect perspective.

You can go to the 17:00 mark on this video and see the beginning of the, bottom of upside down reflection to top of the actual right side up, shrinkage of the ship in perfect perspective

The lower part of the ship and it's reflection disappears first then the upper part/mast with it's reflection disappears last--into not below the horizon.

--Dave

12. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
The only instrument that addresses the horizon is a telescope that I know of. What instrument shows a horizon is not at eye level?
Abney Level

Sight level

So, every time we see a "hard horizon line" we know the Earth is not flat. Does this mean that if there are times when we see "things just sort of fade into a haze in the distance" the earth is flat?

I wrote this argument because it's simply the antithesis of your's. It's not stupid, it's goes to testing which view is correct. The video "How boats vanish over the horizon" demonstrates and proves my counterpoint.

--Dave
Yes, it is stupid David! It isn't simply the antithesis because we do actually see hard horizon lines EVERY TIME WE GO OUTSIDE!!!

And your video shows a hard horizon line with a ship the drops below that line from the bottom up which is exactly what is expected on a globe and THAT COULD NOT HAPPEN ON A FLAT EARTH!

If you think it even makes an argument for your side it's because you're stupid!!!!

I am so tired of this ridiculous nonsense!

Clete

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14. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
The ship does not go over the horizon. It disappears into the horizon, the mast simply disappears last because of its height.

All globe earth arguments say we can't see the curve but we can see ships go over the curve/horizon. This is not the only video that shows ships disappearing into the horizon.

--Dave
You are stupid David. I cannot even believe you're capable of thinking such idiotic things.

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16. Originally Posted by Clete
You are stupid David. I cannot even believe you're capable of thinking such idiotic things.
It's the flat earth argument, not mine.

The original video had no commentary. Here is an analysis to explain it.

--Dave

17. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
It's the flat earth argument, not mine.

Then why make it?

I mean it's literally just abject stupidity! There is no way I would associate myself with something like that. I'd be embarrassed!

The original video had no commentary. Here is an analysis to explain it.

--Dave
What's to explain?

The ship goes over the horizon! There would be no horizon on a flat earth. Case closed!

The stupid morons refute themselves by posting the images and using the word "horizon". Whatever idiotic things they say about the way it looks has to do with the way the light gets bent around and is all just so much lying and/or stupidity.

I'll say it again, there would be no horizon on a flat earth! The ship would just continue to get smaller and smaller into the distance just as it had up to the point where it got to the horizon line.

Clete

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19. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
I'm not FE, I'm making their case. The idea here is to get it understood.
Why?

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21. Originally Posted by Clete
Then why make it?

I mean it's literally just abject stupidity! There is no way I would associate myself with something like that. I'd be embarrassed!

What's to explain?

The ship goes over the horizon! There would be no horizon on a flat earth. Case closed!

The stupid morons refute themselves by posting the images and using the word "horizon". Whatever idiotic things they say about the way it looks has to do with the way the light gets bent around and is all just so much lying and/or stupidity.

I'll say it again, there would be no horizon on a flat earth! The ship would just continue to get smaller and smaller into the distance just as it had up to the point where it got to the horizon line.

Clete
picture-plane.jpg 11332712181768.jpg

The ship would be like a train on a track. The top of the train as we can imagine in the drawing would shrink in size from top to bottom as it moves into the horizon and vanishes. This is what happens on a plane, not a curve. The ships gradual shrinkage from top to bottom corresponds to plane geometry with perspective. The ship does not descend, it moves straight into the horizon beyond our ability to see, even with a telephoto lens.

I repeat, the ship does not move downward, it's moving in a straight line. The parallel lines from it's top to it's bottom meet at the vanishing point on the horizon line. The horizon line is masked because the water in the distance is reflecting the sky and being the same color as the sky we cannot see it. We see the horizon line as the boat gradually shrinks into it.

88a0c074f67df935de94f1d3074b4c28.jpg

Here is a plane geometry grid showing perspective. The ship in the video follows the grid from the right side into the horizon in a straight line.

--Dave

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23. Originally Posted by Clete
You are stupid David. I cannot even believe you're capable of thinking such idiotic things.
I was told pretty much the same thing when I became an open theist.

--Dave

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