# Thread: The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

1. Originally Posted by Clete
It is now 5:30:00 pm Central time (10:30:00 UTC) and the Sun is 33.2° above my horizon and the subsolar point is at 15,9°N 156,2°W

The Moon is 4.4° above my horizon and the sunlunar point is at 20,8°N 167,2°E

The distance from my house to the subsolar point is 3937.31 miles.

The distance from my house to the sunlunar point is 5922.6 miles.

So, if the Earth were flat, the Sun would have to be 2580 miles above the surface.

And the Moon would be 456 miles from the surface of the Earth.

The Sun is now 25% closer the Earth than it was about two hours ago and the Moon is 80% closer to the Earth.

Shall I continue?

I don't see the need. In an hour the Moon will be below the horizon which is not even theoretically possible on a flat Earth where the Moon is constantly in view from somewhere on the surface and the Sun will be forced closer and closer to the Earth.

How many different ways must I prove that the Earth cannot be flat?

This, by itself, is not proof that the Earth is a globe but it is absolute proof that it cannot be flat.

Clete
For me to get this can you direct me to a video that shows me "how" you did all this. I wish I could be there with you as you do did it.

Any way I'll look for for a video myself to see if I can find one that helps me get this. You have done so much work on this I want to take some time really understand it.

My first lesson. But I don't think you used a shadow.

--Dave

2. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
For me to get this can you direct me to a video that shows me "how" you did all this. I wish I could be there with you as you do did it.

Any way I'll look for for a video myself to see if I can find one that helps me get this. You have done so much work on this I want to take some time really understand it.

My first lesson. But I don't think you used a shadow.

--Dave
I used an app on my iPhone called Spyglass.

It's basically a fancy compass that I use every day because I need to know the direction the house I'm inspecting is facing and the compass app that comes with the phone is weak.

It uses the accelerometers and other orientation gadgets that are built into the phone along with my GPS location to show where the Sun, Moon and Polaris are located in the sky at my location. The app is intended for people who do a lot of hiking and that sort of thing but it works great just as a simple sextant.

There are several such apps available for the iPhone and I'm sure for any other phone out there but if you don't want to use your phone, you can make a sextant with a plastic protractor. It won't be nearly as accurate but it'll still give you decent numbers to work with.

There are several other videos on how to make a homemade sextant.

As for the rest, I went to a website that tells me the subsolar and sublunar points...

https://rl.se/sub-solar-point

I plugged in the coordinates into Google Earth and used the measuring tool on Google Earth to measure the distance from those coordinates to my house. I know that Google Earth is based on a globe but the distances between points on the Earth are not disputed by Flat Earthers so it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, the distances would be somewhat smaller on a flat Earth since there is no curvature to deal with and so the bigger numbers actually work to make the results slightly less embarrassing for the Flat Earth model than they would otherwise be.

The rest was just plugging in the numbers on the right triangle calculator...

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

That's the best I can do. I wish I had video making skills but I just don't. Sorry.

3. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 9th, 2018)

4. Dave,

So, yesterday I did some math using the angle of the Sun and Moon above the horizon and the distances between my location and the locations on the Earth directly below the Sun and Moon.

I'm hoping that it is clear how my location, the subsolar point and the Sun itself create a right triangle and how I took the given data (the length of side b and angle A) and solved for the length of side a.

arittri.gif

Now what I'd really like for you to do is to go back and read post 3034 again and see if it's now clear to you what it is that I was doing with that math.

It is essentially the exact same thing except that instead of having data for side b and solving for side a, it's the reverse of that. In that post I still have angle A but instead of having a distance along the surface of the Earth, I assume a 3000 mile distance from the subsolar point on the Earth to the Sun (side a) and then I solve for side b.

The result is not only that the subsolar point would be an impossibly far distance away but, just as importantly, given the two sets of simultaneous data, the Sun would have to be in two places at once.

Can you see now that perspective wouldn't have anything to do with these calculations?

Clete

5. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 9th, 2018),Yorzhik (August 9th, 2018)

6. Originally Posted by Clete
Dave,

So, yesterday I did some math using the angle of the Sun and Moon above the horizon and the distances between my location and the locations on the Earth directly below the Sun and Moon.

I'm hoping that it is clear how my location, the subsolar point and the Sun itself create a right triangle and how I took the given data (the length of side b and angle A) and solved for the length of side a.

arittri.gif

Now what I'd really like for you to do is to go back and read post 3034 again and see if it's now clear to you what it is that I was doing with that math.

It is essentially the exact same thing except that instead of having data for side b and solving for side a, it's the reverse of that. In that post I still have angle A but instead of having a distance along the surface of the Earth, I assume a 3000 mile distance from the subsolar point on the Earth to the Sun (side a) and then I solve for side b.

The result is not only that the subsolar point would be an impossibly far distance away but, just as importantly, given the two sets of simultaneous data, the Sun would have to be in two places at once.

Can you see now that perspective wouldn't have anything to do with these calculations?

Clete
I understand the this arittri.gif

But what I don't understand is how you get the angle of the sun from your location.

I would like to be able to do the same and be able to get the angle of the sun from my location.

I think that's what you wanted me to do but I was busy moving at the time and could not participate.

I was watching this video and saw that the angle of the sun as established for 2000 years was changed, seems trying to calculate the sun's angle was not an easy thing to do.

--Dave

7. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
I understand the this arittri.gif

But what I don't understand is how you get the angle of the sun from your location.

I would like to be able to do the same and be able to get the angle of the sun from my location.

I think that's what you wanted me to do but I was busy moving at the time and could not participate.

I was watching this video and saw that the angle of the sun as established for 2000 years was changed, seems trying to calculate the sun's angle was not an easy thing to do.

--Dave
Measuring the angle of the Sun is not something that can be changed in the way you are suggesting. It's just a simple measurement of the angle of the Sun above the horizon. It changes constantly.

At sunrise and sunset the Sun is at 0° above the horizon. At Noon, it's be something closer to 90°. It only gets to 90° on a day when your location happens to be at the subsolar point which never happens at all if you live north of the Tropic of Cancer or south of the Tropic of Capricorn. We aren't measuring the angle of the Sun relative to the whole Earth and the rest of the Solar System or anything like that. It's just the angle of the Sun relative to your "theoretical" horizon (i.e. ignoring the presence of hills or mountains or other obstructions to what would be your horizon if you were on a large body of water or on a flat plain).

The easiest way to do it is with your cell phone. Do you have an iPhone or Android phone?

The screen will look something like this...

Attachment 26633

That's a screen shot taken with my phone in my back yard. I intentionally aimed the camera a little off to the side of where the Sun was so that it was easier to read the data.

On the right side of the screen you'll see a little image of the Sun indicating the Sun's position and off to the side of it you'll see it's directional heading and it's elevation above the horizon in degrees. In that photo it is indicating that the Sun is basically on the horizon being only -.2° (two tenths of of one degree) below the horizon. If it were way up in the sky it might read 45.2° or at noon it might say 88.9° or whatever it happens to be at the moment I snap the screen shot. I don't even have to be outside. I can do it from my desk or my car or wherever the phone can read my GPS location.

It's just a sextant measurement, not a complicated astronomical calculation. The video you posted has to do with calculating the distance to the Sun based on the angle of the Sun away from some other body in the solar system. When the Moon is exactly half lit up then the Moon is at point C in the right triangle and the Earth and Sun are at points A and B (it doesn't matter which one you put where). If you know the distance to the Moon (side a) and the angle between the Moon's apparent location and the Sun apparent location (angle A) then you can calculate the distance to the Sun (side c). But if you're off on either the angle or the distance between the Earth and the Moon, then your results will not be accurate. Eratosthenes' thinking was exactly right but his data was off by significant margins. Today, we can directly measure the distance to the Moon or even Venus by bouncing radar waves off the objects and thereby get very accurate calculations of the distance to the Sun. And, knowing the distance to the Sun along with it's apparent angular size, you can calculate it's actual size.

This is how we know for a fact how far away and how big the Sun is along with the distance and size of the Moon and Venus and several other bodies in the solar system.

Clete

8. ## The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 10th, 2018),Right Divider (August 12th, 2018),Yorzhik (August 9th, 2018)

9. Dave,

Imagine you are standing directly underneath a basketball hoop (or some other object), which is 10 feet off the ground.

The hoop would be at 90° above your horizon.

Now imagine that I am looking at the same hoop but it is 33.2° up from my horizon.

That puts you at point C and me at point A. How far away are we standing from each other?

Now do the same thing only instead of assuming a 10 foot high object, assume that I am 57 feet away from you. Using the same angles (90° for you and 33.2° for me), calculate how high the object is above your head.

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

If you do that, you'll have done exactly the same thing I have done with these calculations. The only difference is the distances.

Clete

P.S.

This will likely be the last post from me for a few days. Gonna be busy this weekend.

10. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 10th, 2018)

11. Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.

--Dave

12. Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.

--Dave

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

13. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Stripe For Your Post:

Clete (August 13th, 2018),JudgeRightly (August 11th, 2018)

14. Every single time I play one these videos, it proves to be a waste of time!

How in the world can these videos convince anyone of anything other than that Flat Earthers are the stupidest people alive?

That video doesn't even show the Sun at all! It shows a boat vanishing from the bottom up into a reflective mirage. Then at 11:55 the idiot mentions the phrase "there's your sunset".

I mean seriously! Are you kidding me or what?

Clete

15. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 13th, 2018)

16. Originally Posted by Clete
...
I mean seriously! Are you kidding me or what?

Clete
Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
Here is one of the best videos showing the sun over the ocean getting smaller and smaller as it moves into and beyond the vanishing point of a flat earth.
...
--Dave

17. ## The Following User Says Thank You to chair For Your Post:

JudgeRightly (August 13th, 2018)

18. In this video we can see a "reflection" of the sun before we see the sun appear through the horizon at sun rise.

1. At 0:45 into the video we see the what looks like the top of the sun but it is a reflection with the sun above it but not yet visible through the atmosphere.

2. The reflection grows larger until at 1:12 we see the bottom of the sun appear and gradually merge with it's reflection.

3. There is a horizon reflection that is seen for both ships and sun over the ocean that demonstrate how we see it from perspective over a flat earth. The top of the actual ship and sun and the bottom of their reflections are compressed together.

The case for flat earth is that nothing sinks below a curved earth. Everything moves into the horizon.

The argument from globe earth is that the sun would always be visible from everywhere over a flat earth and discounts perspective.

The distance of the sun from above the earth and the size of the sun would be consistent with what we see.

--Dave

19. Is it true that the sun, moon, and stars appear to move at the same rate of speed as this short clip states?

--Dave

20. Here we see the argument for flat earth based on local illumination of the sun as it sets as opposed to what we would see if the earth were a spinning globe.

--Dave

21. It would be impossible for sun, moon, and stars to appear to move at the same rate of speed if they were at vastly different distances from the earth.

The obvious conclusion is that the sun, moon, and stars are all about the same distance from the earth.

--Dave

22. The question is: "Who cares?"

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave

It would be impossible for sun, moon, and stars to appear to move at the same rate of speed if they were at vastly different distances from the earth.

The obvious conclusion is that the sun, moon, and stars are all about the same distance from the earth.

--Dave

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JudgeRightly (August 13th, 2018)

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