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Thread: Jesus: The end and the fulfillment of the Old Testament

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    So there are two sets of laws? making the kingdom an apartheid state of sorts...

    The Holy Spirit does NOT lead one to do the Will of Yah? Live and love just as He did?

    In the OT faith came first and then because it saved His people always WANTED to keep the Law...out of gratitude for being saved...

    Just like now...

    and just like then in the OT some people now don’t want to keep the law either...

    There are not two sets of laws. The law written on the Christians heart is of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit prompts us to do good works. The written law demands it, Ephesians 2:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    There are not two sets of laws. The law written on the Christians heart is of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit prompts us to do good works. The written law demands it, Ephesians 2:10.
    Yes exactly...the Holy Spirit prompts us to keep the Law which remains and is exactly the good works created for us to do...given to us from the Father and to do His will...

    John 12:48”There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”…

    Please stop baring false witness with claims there is nothing expected of christians in Him desiring to live as He did...His Way...to do the good works...because of what was done for them

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Yes exactly...the Holy Spirit prompts us to keep the Law which remains and is exactly the good works created for us to do...given to us from the Father and to do His will...

    John 12:48”There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”…

    Please stop baring false witness with claims there is nothing expected of christians in Him desiring to live as He did...His Way...to do the good works...because of what was done for them

    Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, not the law. If you try to be like Jesus it will lead to legalism. The Christian life is lived out of gratitude for what Christ has done for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, not the law.
    just like those saved from egypt and then given the Law...its still faith first just like the OT...saved and then out of gratitude live as per instructions

    If you try to be like Jesus it will lead to legalism.
    yet He Himself instructed “follow me” “love as I have loved you” “keep My commandments” “follow Pharisees teachings” “that do the Will of my Father” Paul instructed “copy me as I copied Christ” “be reborn” into a new life...following Him “if you love me”

    The Christian life is lived out of gratitude for what Christ has done for them.
    yes feel free to describe that “living out gratitude” Christians do...is it MORE LIKE HIM or more like their former selves?

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to clefty For Your Post:

    genuineoriginal (March 20th, 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    just like those saved from egypt and then given the Law...its still faith first just like the OT...saved and then out of gratitude live as per instructions

    yet He Himself instructed “follow me” “love as I have loved you” “keep My commandments” “follow Pharisees teachings” “that do the Will of my Father” Paul instructed “copy me as I copied Christ” “be reborn” into a new life...following Him “if you love me”

    yes feel free to describe that “living out gratitude” Christians do...is it MORE LIKE HIM or more like their former selves?

    The difference between being led by the law and being led by the Spirit is that the law led have to,

    While the Spirit led want to and enjoy doing so. Big, big, difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    The difference between being led by the law and being led by the Spirit is that the law led have to,

    While the Spirit led want to and enjoy doing so. Big, big, difference.
    I suppose that those thoughts give you comfort of some sort, but they are not supported by the Bible.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I suppose that those thoughts give you comfort of some sort, but they are not supported by the Bible.
    You must belong to the church of "I must".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    The difference between being led by the law and being led by the Spirit is that the law led have to,

    While the Spirit led want to and enjoy doing so. Big, big, difference.
    Oh sure...exactly...just because the motorist is pulled over he cant claim the law is not binding because some other driver kept it perfectly...nor can he argue the law is over because he is tired of having to keep the law...

    You want to drive you should learn to want to keep the law...

    Just like I dont do “works” like wash my own dishes in my own kitchen because I HAVE TO...but because I WANT TO...its not a chore but my desire to keep my kitchen nice...

    Same with WANTING to keep the Law because we are already saved rather than HAVE to keep it to get saved...big big difference

    SPIRIT LED WANTING to keep the Law is a BIG difference from arguing the Law no longer exists for me...

    Staying Spirit led will have you WANT to keep the Law...out of gratitude for being saved...

    IF YOU LOVE ME...keep my commandments...most Christians really dont love Him...are less like Him than the world...their fruits reveal that...

    INDEED...So glad we are in agreement here...big BIG HUGE difference being Spirit led and wanting to keep the Law...BECAUSE we are saved IN HIM Spirit led...

    As always the Law remains to point out those who WANT to be with Him and those that dont

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Oh sure...exactly...just because the motorist is pulled over he cant claim the law is not binding because some other driver kept it perfectly...nor can he argue the law is over because he is tired of having to keep the law...
    Bingo-I stated as much, but he continues his demonic "logic," that, since someone cannot keep from doing/keeping the law of God, it must be destroyed/abolished/made void.And, unless a law is destroyed, we are under its authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    The law has not been abolished for you because you are under it and will be judged by it.
    Pate: Unless the laws against speeding, rape, murder, adultery.... are abolished/made void, we are all under it, and judged as guilty.

    Pate: If the laws of foreign countries are not abolished/destroyed/eliminated/maded void, we are all under it, and will be judged by it.

    And he, in demonic drunkenness, corrupts/trashes/butchers the meaning of abolish/destroy/makes void, saying something can be destroyed/abolished for some, un-abolished , un-destroyed, un made void for others.

    Demonic moron, spiraling into dementia....Seen it often, in the financial services industry...


    That is his demonic "reasoning," from the pits of hell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Jesus came to abolish the law because we cannot do it.


    For eg.:

    Pate gets a speeding ticket. He goes to court, and, in front of the judge...



    Pate:Judge, I demand that you abolish/destroy the law against speeding. It is not a good law, because I/others cannot keep it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!This law is not for my benefit, or society's-it is contrary to/against me/society!!!!!!!!!! Abolish it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And, if you do not abolish it, it automatically condemns me, judges me, as guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





    The judge: No, the laws are good, and are for everyone's benefit, including yours. They are not against you, are not contrary to you, they are not against society, they are not contrary to society, -they stand. The problem is with you/others breaking these good laws, and the debt you/others must pay for these offenses(sins) you committed. That is what is contrary to/against you/others. Pay the fine. The law cannot condemn you, just because it is in place.



    Pate: No!!!!! Abolish the law!!!!!!!



    The judge: Either pay the fine, or go to jail-the law stands.



    Pate: No!!!!The laws are not good-they are the problem, not me!!!!





    Benevolent, gracious judge: Tell you what, Pate. Someone just paid your fine/debt/IOU(sin, offense, transgression) on your behalf. Justice is served. You are free to go(Christ died for our sins....paying the sin debt, IOU)



    Pate: No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That person need not have paid my fine/debt!!!!!(Christ need not die to pay the sin debt/IOU). The solution is to abolish, destroy, make void, the laws against speeding(fill in the blank), so that we will not have to "do" these laws, obey them, and the solution is not the fine being satisfied(Christ-propitiation)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Benevolent, gracious judge: Lock up this man for dementia, contempt of court, lunacy-put him in a straight jacket.
    Last edited by john w; March 20th, 2018 at 04:08 PM.
    Saint John W

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    If the death of one can be reckoned to sinners and counted on their behalf, could God not have also reckoned Christ's sinless walk under the Law to sinners as well?

    Yes, God could have done that too, but as pointed out far more many times than should be necessary, His doing so would

    (a) negate the need for Christ dying, and

    (b) all that theorizing aside, the Bible NOWHERE says Christ's sinless life/perfect Law-walk is reckoned to the believer.

    Pate made this up.

    So how is it that believers are not under Law? Two options, only one of them is right:

    According to Paul, God declares the believer as having died with Christ -- and Law has no more claims over those who have died. His death is the point there, not His life.

    According to Pate, Christ's perfect lawkeeping is credited to them. His life is the point there, not His death.

    Pate made that up too.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    If the death of one can be reckoned to sinners and counted on their behalf, could God not have also reckoned Christ's sinless walk under the Law to sinners as well?

    Yes, God could have done that too, but as pointed out far more many times than should be necessary, His doing so would

    (a) negate the need for Christ dying, and

    (b) all that theorizing aside, the Bible NOWHERE says Christ's sinless life/perfect Law-walk is reckoned to the believer.

    Pate made this up.

    So how is it that believers are not under Law? Two options, only one of them is right:

    According to Paul, God declares the believer as having died with Christ -- and Law has no more claims over those who have died. His death is the point there, not His life.

    According to Pate, Christ's perfect lawkeeping is credited to them. His life is the point there, not His death.

    Pate made that up too.
    Yes-he wings most of his "doctrine."
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    If the death of one can be reckoned to sinners and counted on their behalf, could God not have also reckoned Christ's sinless walk under the Law to sinners as well?

    Yes, God could have done that too, but as pointed out far more many times than should be necessary, His doing so would

    (a) negate the need for Christ dying, and

    (b) all that theorizing aside, the Bible NOWHERE says Christ's sinless life/perfect Law-walk is reckoned to the believer.

    Pate made this up.

    So how is it that believers are not under Law?

    According to Paul, God declares the believer as having died with Christ -- and Law has no more claims over those who have died. His death, not life.

    According to Pate, Christ's perfect lawkeeping is credited to them. His life, not death.

    Pate made that up too.
    HOGWASH!

    The Gospel makes the law of no effect so it was abolished.

    All that Jesus was and all that Jesus did was for our justification and our salvation. "We are complete in Christ" Colossians 2:14.

    The law has been fulfilled, sin, death and the devil have been defeated, the law has been abolished. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we can now stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Christ.

    If you still feel that you need the law and religion, chances are you are not saved.

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    Pateism. The newest cult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    HOGWASH!

    The Gospel makes the law of no effect so it was abolished.
    No. Paul says the Law is good if a man use it correctly, which you are not. It is "abolished" only in that the believer has, in a sense, been abolished out from under Law. The Law has not moved. The believer did, from death to life. Those declared dead are no longer under the Law they died to.

    All that Jesus was and all that Jesus did was for our justification and our salvation.
    Paul doesn't say that. Spamming it won't make it true.

    If you still feel that you need the law and religion, chances are you are not saved.
    Who is "you"?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Bingo-I stated as much, but he continues his demonic "logic," that, since someone cannot keep from doing/keeping the law of God, it must be destroyed/abolished/made void.And, unless a law is destroyed, we are under its authority.



    Pate: Unless the laws against speeding, rape, murder, adultery.... are abolished/made void, we are all under it, and judged as guilty.

    Pate: If the laws of foreign countries are not abolished/destroyed/eliminated/maded void, we are all under it, sand will be judged by it.

    And he, in demonic drunkenness, corrupts/trashes/butchers the meaning of abolish/destroy/makes void, saying something can be destroyed/abolished for some, un-abolished , un-destroyed, un made void for others.

    Demonic moron, spiraling into dementia....Seen it often, in the financial services industry...


    That is his demonic "reasoning," from the pits of hell.






    For eg.:

    Pate gets a speeding ticket. He goes to court, and, in front of the judge...



    Pate:Judge, I demand that you abolish/destroy the law against speeding. It is not a good law, because I/others cannot keep it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!This law is not for my benefit, or society's-it is contrary to/against me/society!!!!!!!!!! Abolish it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And, if you do not abolish it, it automatically condemns me, judges me, as guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





    The judge: No, the laws are good, and are for everyone's benefit, including yours. They are not against you, are not contrary to you, they are not against society, they are not contrary to society, -they stand. The problem is with you/others breaking these good laws, and the debt you/others must pay for these offenses(sins) you committed. That is what is contrary to/against you/others. Pay the fine. The law cannot condemn you, just because it is in place.



    Pate: No!!!!! Abolish the law!!!!!!!



    The judge: Either pay the fine, or go to jail-the law stands.



    Pate: No!!!!The laws are not good-they are the problem, not me!!!!





    Benevolent, gracious judge: Tell you what, Pate. Someone just paid your fine/debt/IOU(sin, offense, transgression) on your behalf. Justice is served. You are free to go(Christ died for our sins....paying the sin debt, IOU)



    Pate: No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That person need not have paid my fine/debt!!!!!(Christ need not die to pay the sin debt/IOU). The solution is to abolish, destroy, make void, the laws against speeding(fill in the blank), so that we will not have to "do" these laws, obey them, and the solution is not the fine being satisfied(Christ-propitiation)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Benevolent, gracious judge: Lock up this man for dementia, contempt of court, lunacy-put him in a straight jacket.
    Wonder if it helps that the 10 commandments are really more like the 10 words or sayings or descriptions...

    It’s not so much “thou shalt not” but “where I am there is no...”

    Yah hates sin that heart/attitude that keeps one from wanting to be with Him doing things His way...

    The law just lets us know what to expect when we are WITH HIM...

    ...on earth as it is in heaven...

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Pateism. The newest cult.



    No. Paul says the Law is good if a man use it correctly, which you are not. It is "abolished" only in that the believer has, in a sense, been abolished out from under Law. The Law has not moved. The believer did, from death to life. Those declared dead are no longer under the Law they died to.



    Paul doesn't say that. Spamming it won't make it true.



    Who is "you"?
    Paul also said, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and mothers and murderers of mothers and for manslayers" 1 Timothy 1:9.

    If any of the above fits, then the law is for you. The righteous man is the man that lives by faith in Christ and his Gospel. He is justified by faith and not the law. He is thankful that the law has been abolished. If he is justified by faith, then who needs the law?

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