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Thread: More news from or about the Left (they're getting crazier and even more corrupted)

  1. #46
    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Washington Compost
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  2. #47
    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I'm happy wherever the actual data points. Maybe 'happy' isn't the right word, but it is all I'm really interested in. Whatever view the Muslim populace of America holds, I want to know what the actuality is. I don't really care much about dueling opine, deciduous or other.

    Whether Muslims or just 'like me' or not isn't closed down by anecdote. I DO know that anything not "Christian" is unequivocally wrong. Muslim may well be better than "atheist." I do want to weigh it all without a wave off. It doesn't help that I hold most liberal perspective suspect already, however. I know a lot of liberals hate being declared unchristian and unpatriotic. The fact is, 'if' a liberal is behind the devil-ution of American values (and they are), then they really are demon-strably anti-traditional American values and Christian principles. If one is anti-Christ, we are 'supposed' to be opposed. I'm not looking for a cookie cutter BUT diversity "at-expense-of" fully Christian values?

    *Demonizing not but to show that often these are very important discussions. Life and death, right and wrong, black and white. Marginalizing is fine, I'm up for that war if push comes to shove because the push/shove is against that wall already.

    Quick question: Do you believe, one day, that Jesus is going to judge and that ONLY one way is the correct one? How dedicated are you to HIS regime? How does such affect our politics? Should it? In the world and of it, or but not of it?

    Any liberal or moderate who believes he/she stands before his/her Savior must account. "If" a moderate or liberal ever had an indictment against a conservative Christian, before the Lord Jesus Christ, he/she has been horrible about bringing these before the judgement seat. The seat definitely looks hotter for the liberal and moderate than a conservative. I've seen too much 'liberal' Christian behavior to believe that will ever go the other way. I've known way too many and wonder if they are Christian, let alone in church-good-standing. You know we have a good number on TOL so can't contest numbers as far as I'm concerned.

    I hope there is a lot here to think on. -Lon
    Good post, Lon. As you might have already heard, Barb is a Catholic and therefore, does not adhere to the Gospel that was given to the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus. So far as being a member of the Body of Christ while at the same time clinging to far-left-wing ideology doesn't seem to fit? A true Christian believer, in my opinion, would find that ideology, repulsive and avoid it. So, in my opinion, if someone is confessing to be a Child of God they cannot/would not, align themselves with the far-left Democratic Party as it stands today. I told a very good friend of mine a few years back that, Christians lean more towards the Republican Party and he said; "That appears to be the case." He's also a Christian Brother and teaches adult Sunday School at his church. How a true believer can consider themself a far-left Democrat and call themself a Christian at the same time is beyond my comprehension?

  3. #48
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Good post, Lon. As you might have already heard, Barb is a Catholic and therefore, does not adhere to the Gospel that was given to the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus.
    (Grosnik is so obsessed with the Evil Barbarian that he'll slander most of the world's Christians, just to say something bad about him)
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  4. #49
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I'm happy wherever the actual data points.
    I've asked to see your data, and you declined to show us. What's that about?

    Maybe 'happy' isn't the right word, but it is all I'm really interested in. Whatever view the Muslim populace of America holds, I want to know what the actuality is. I don't really care much about dueling opine, deciduous or other.
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?

    Whether Muslims or just 'like me' or not isn't closed down by anecdote.
    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.

    I DO know that anything not "Christian" is unequivocally wrong.
    Jesus disagrees:
    Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.


    Muslim may well be better than "atheist."
    Quick question: Do you believe that a Muslim who has charity for his neighbor is better than a Christian who does not? If you trust Jesus, the Muslim is right, and the Christian is wrong. Do you trust Him? Or do you accept what He says when it fits your wishes?

    One day, that Jesus is going to judge and He says that He will judge you on the was you treated the least among us. How dedicated are you to HIS regime? How does such affect our politics? Should it? In the world and of it, or but not of it?

    Any person who believes he/she stands before his/her Savior must account. When He asks you, what will you answer? And I suspect political justifications won't do it for you.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Will he be impressed by your political twist on his words?

    I hope there is a lot here to think on.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  5. #50
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I've asked to see your data, and you declined to show us. What's that about?
    The data I was interested in, was that already given. About every other attack in the U.S. is from a disturbed godless teenager or a Muslim this past year.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?



    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.
    That is just all you care about. I've got TWO eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Jesus disagrees:
    Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.
    You are confusing 'neighbor' with Christian. A lot of your Christianity is confused, so this isn't a new-one on me.
    What would be nice, is if you can learn from one more learned on the subject than you. You are frankly and sadly wrong, about what Jesus said as applying to this situation AND what His point was. He didn't say the Samaritan was a Christian, or Jew. He said the Samaritan was a better neighbor.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Quick question: Do you believe that a Muslim who has charity for his neighbor is better than a Christian who does not? If you trust Jesus, the Muslim is right, and the Christian is wrong. Do you trust Him? Or do you accept what He says when it fits your wishes?
    No, I'll be accusing you of picking and choosing and marginalizing the Lord Jesus Christ from YOUR life. Half of my family is Catholic, on an alcoholic priest (the whole family knows it). There is this very ugly business of 'tacking Jesus on' as an afterthought in their lives. Me? I CAN'T live without the Lord Jesus Christ. There is NOTHING without the Lord Jesus Christ. HOWEVER I end up on this subject it WILL be with a desire to glorify Him instead of myself and whatever passes in front of my egocentric nose. If I vote to 'oust' Muslims, it will be to protect others. If I vote to keep them, it will be in hopes that Christian love and charity may win some of them. If you aren't of the same mind, frankly, I love the Lord Jesus Christ and you pay meaningless lip-service "Depart from me, I NEVER knew you." "If." If you truly love the Lord Jesus Christ, 1) You are a RARE Catholic and 2) I'd be pleased to entertain that there are two possibles on the table that could potentially honor the Lord Jesus Christ and show a love for people.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    One day, that Jesus is going to judge and He says that He will judge you on the was you treated the least among us. How dedicated are you to HIS regime? How does such affect our politics? Should it? In the world and of it, or but not of it?
    For an academic man, you don't seem to know how to do simple formatting. Part of this is my quote, part yours. Treating the 'least' is a Muslim? You are calling them the 'least' in need of your protection?

    Any person who believes he/she stands before his/her Savior must account. When He asks you, what will you answer? And I suspect political justifications won't do it for you.
    YOU are motivated by liberal democrats ALL OVER TOL. You'll find it nearly impossible to find me tauting the conservative line. I'm 'theologically' motivated. It is why I asked 'theological' questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by NOTThe Barbarian View Post
    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Will he be impressed by your political twist on his words?

    I hope there is a lot here to think on.
    Again, for an academic, it amazes me you cannot fathom simple formatting. It isn't this hard.

    ▲All of that was me▲ Don't ignore scripture. It is not 'from' me. It is 'from' Him.

    I don't know a lot of Muslims. We don't have that many in America, yet. I do know one. He sold me my car. I've no idea if he is happy selling cars or is planning some atrocity any more than if you are happy to just sell education material or want to plan something nefarious.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  6. #51
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Good post, Lon. As you might have already heard, Barb is a Catholic and therefore, does not adhere to the Gospel that was given to the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus. So far as being a member of the Body of Christ while at the same time clinging to far-left-wing ideology doesn't seem to fit? A true Christian believer, in my opinion, would find that ideology, repulsive and avoid it. So, in my opinion, if someone is confessing to be a Child of God they cannot/would not, align themselves with the far-left Democratic Party as it stands today. I told a very good friend of mine a few years back that, Christians lean more towards the Republican Party and he said; "That appears to be the case." He's also a Christian Brother and teaches adult Sunday School at his church. How a true believer can consider themself a far-left Democrat and call themself a Christian at the same time is beyond my comprehension?
    I think it is an important question and discussion. It 'tends' to be liberal politics are ALSO liberal theologians and nearly none of them believers.

    I do think those trends are changing. There are democrats against abortion, and oddly a few republicans for it. It 'used' to be Democrats were 'for the working people' and that Republicans were 'for the entrepreneurs' and big companies.

    We 'working people' don't have a party any more. Democrats are for liberal and oddity fringes and media moguls and entertainers as well as liberal values rather than needs. Republican had become a 'values' party for Christians by default and a shared values of some right/wrongs.

    I don't find the 'Republican/Democrat' discussion as essential as a discussion over Christian values.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  7. #52
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Barbarian asks:
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?

    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    The data I was interested in, was that already given.
    Link? I'm wondering why you're so shy about showing it to us.

    About every other attack in the U.S. is from a disturbed godless teenager or a Muslim this past year.
    Show us that, totals and percentages. Or whatever you think justifies the claim.

    I DO know that anything not "Christian" is unequivocally wrong.
    Barbarian observes:
    Jesus disagrees:
    Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.

    (sound of goal posts being frantically repositioned)

    You are confusing 'neighbor' with Christian.
    Your claim was that if it isn't Christian, it's unequivocally wrong. As you see, Jesus disagrees with you. No way to dodge it. Unless you're prepared to argue that Samaritans are Christians.

    You're confused about the parable, and don't get what Jesus is saying here. It's not "it's a good thing to help out the needy." It's "a non-believer who has charity for his neighbor is right, and a Christian who does not, is wrong."

    What would be nice, is if you can learn from Jesus. You are frankly and sadly wrong, about what Jesus said as applying to this situation AND what His point was. He didn't say the Samaritan was a Christian, or Jew. He said the Samaritan right, and that we should emulate him, in preference to the religiously-correct Levite.

    Quick question: Do you believe that a Muslim who has charity for his neighbor is better than a Christian who does not? If you trust Jesus, the Muslim is right, and the Christian is wrong. Do you trust Him? Or do you accept what He says when it fits your wishes?

    No, I'll be accusing you of picking and choosing and marginalizing the Lord Jesus Christ from YOUR life.
    And yet, I accept what He says, and you will not.

    Half of my family is Catholic, on an alcoholic priest (the whole family knows it).
    Get over it. If you act like this with your family, it's no surprise that you're estranged from them. I have a brother who is no longer Catholic; we get along fine.

    I CAN'T live without the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Then put down your political axe, and just follow Him. If you were an imitation of Christ, you'd be far better off.

    If you truly love the Lord Jesus Christ, 1) You are a RARE Catholic
    Most people who think they hate the Church don't have any idea what it is, or what Catholics think. You're no different.

    I'd be pleased to entertain that there are two possibles on the table that could potentially honor the Lord Jesus Christ and show a love for people.
    Then do it. Set aside your resentments and just do it. Whether or not your new faith is correct will not be the way He judges you.

    For an academic man, you don't seem to know how to do simple formatting.
    Who said I was an academic man? There are lots of smart people who never went to college and a lot of them who did, who never adapted the "academic" personna.

    Treating the 'least' is a Muslim?
    It's what Jesus says He will decide your eternal home over. Muslims are also told to care for the needy, as a requirement for salvation, as Jesus said.

    You are calling them the 'least' in need of your protection?
    I'm pointing out that our eternal home in heaven or hell, depends (according to Jesus) on the way we treat the needy. No one said anything about Muslims being least. Your bias is showing.

    YOU are motivated by liberal democrats ALL OVER TOL.
    Except for 2nd Amendment and abortion issues and a few other things, I generally incline to liberal or libertarian views. I'm not foolish enough to think that liberalism or conservatism is required for salvation.

    I'd suggest you focus more on Jesus and less on politics if you want to discuss theology.

    I don't know a lot of Muslims.
    Which may be why you fear them, and I don't.

    We don't have that many in America, yet. I do know one. He sold me my car. I've no idea if he is happy selling cars or is planning some atrocity
    If he had been Jewish would the idea even come up with you? You're trapped in your assumptions and can't get loose of them.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  8. #53
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian asks:
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?

    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.



    Link? I'm wondering why you're so shy about showing it to us.
    I don't mean to call your intelligence into question but it is necessary:
    1) Can you, or can you not format like an intelligent adult?
    2) "that 'already' given" Odd you seem to be looking for additions when I said that which is given in thread so far is what I'm interested in...

    If you are going to try from 'more academic' or 'more constitutional' or 'more Christian' by comparisons with me, you are going to lose. It isn't that I'm a holier-than-thou (Jesus is the answer) or 'smarter-than-you' (Jesus gave the where-with-all) or am 'more-american' (The Lord Jesus Christ causes who is born here dyed in red-white-blue). I'm just saying by virtue, I have the where-with-all on all counts nor do I put confidence in the flesh. I'm RATHER interested in YOUR, MY, and the Muslim's spiritual welfare as well as 'if' there is anything any one of us can do that makes a difference about specifically, that need.

    On this, I'm not altogether against the liberal answer of 'immigration' but rather probably against the liberal agenda. We are responsible for taking care of those God brings about our path. I just had a conversation with my sister about Planned Parenthood. What is 'supposed' to be a service is an organization that is more interested in $$$ when it comes to selling baby parts. As a Christian, I must side with those who are against that atrocity. A few liberals and some who claim strongly they are believers, have to fight well with me because it doesn't matter who you are, wrong is wrong and never right. One MUST convince that endangering lives is a 'worthy' sacrifice for an ideal NOT embraced by Americans in general. I was telling my daughter why I don't like Disney's "Aladdin." It exemplifies the life of a thief. It is a Muslim story and value.

    I can't keep a group of Americans from valuing thievery. I 'can' vote whether those are welcome in the U.S. You AGAIN confuse being neighborly with Christianity. Jesus' example wasn't to tell His disciples to go and be like Samaritans. Jesus was VERY clear the Samaritans were wrong. The question was "Who is my neighbor?" in questioning who to be 'good to.' The answer was, whoever you are good to, you are being neighborly too. Don't read too much into the answer or you miss what the Lord Jesus Christ was trying to say. People assume a lot regarding that story. They shouldn't. You can be nice/neighborly to a murderer, but you'd be a much better neighbor and nice to those around you, if you protect against that one. It'd be a sin, in fact, not to. There is no excuse for harboring wickedness, no matter how 'nice' you are. As I said, I don't demonize the Muslim any more than I'd do with a Hindu. It is more a question about being wise. There IS a reason I'm not a Muslim. There IS a reason I'm not a Buddhist. I can coexist, as far as it depends upon me. Romans 12:18

    What is your take on that verse as it applies to Christians differing over Planned Parenthood? Is it the primary verse/concern? Do you agree it is? We may very well disagree about the MOST loving thing to do but this verse too: Matthew 10:16




    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Show us that, totals and percentages. Or whatever you think justifies the claim.
    "If" you are as intelligent as you claim, why aren't you 1) reading these already? 2) Looking for them from others you think you are smarter than? Try here (WITHOUT forgetting # 1 and 2 if these don't suffice for you). I've looked. Roughly every other attack has been between troubled teens and ADULT Muslim extremists, home-grown. That's alarming. I'd talked about this about a year ago in another thread. Nobody with two eyes open turns a blind eye to evidence and facts. Where were you during that conversation and MORE importantly, why did you forget? I don't want to blame all Muslims but I don't want to be stupid one-eye blind either. "IF" there is a greater risk from certain people groups, we want to look at that, even 'if' it means we look racist or biased. I don't 'want' to put Japanese Americans in camps when at war with Japan but it 'might' be deemed necessary (It was). Hindsight works rather well.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian observes:
    Jesus disagrees:
    It'd be nice if pontificate, Barbarian knew how to actually format properly to assert anything. It loses its punch when one looks inept in 'trying' to assert something. The wit just gets lost at that point. Sorry about that. Again - Stop. You CAN'T out-smart-mouth me. I 'can' assist you in looking inept if you insist on being inept. Try another tack. Sincerity would be a nice one.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.

    (sound of goal posts being frantically repositioned)
    No, and I've told you 'why' you are wrong about that, frankly. You are 'looking' inept for the poor attempt, frankly.
    The point AGAIN was 'who is my neighbor?' Loving God and man isn't the question here, nor is being loving toward all men. Rather, it is which is 'wiser' to deny Muslims access at present with a risk of extremism, or to simply 'overlook' that problem and allow them in without vetting?

    You SHOULD visit the guy in prison but you SHOULD NOT avoid putting him/her there if such is deemed necessary. It is called 'being a responsible adult and citizen.' You can try to show me how to love the bully another time. There is no question I need to love the bully, but NOT allow him to bully those around me. Irresponsible touchy-feely just isn't the answer.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Your claim was that if it isn't Christian, it's unequivocally wrong. As you see, Jesus disagrees with you. No way to dodge it. Unless you're prepared to argue that Samaritans are Christians.
    The sad thing? No He wasn't and you look like... well... ▲this▲ and you did it to yourself, by yourself. You frankly, look inept and shallow. Try beyond your veneer answer next time. Believe it or not, I have your best interest at heart, both eyes open, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    You're confused about the parable, and don't get what Jesus is saying here. It's not "it's a good thing to help out the needy." It's "a non-believer who has charity for his neighbor is right, and a Christian who does not, is wrong."
    No. Frankly. It's not. Luke 10:25-37
    Question one: What must I do to inherit eternal life? Luke 10:25
    Answer: Luke 10:26-28 What do you think? You are correct, do so and you will live.
    .
    Question two: Just to be sure, who are my neighbors? Note in the parable the JEW is STILL the neighbor. The question was 'who showed himself to be the 'neighbor' to the Jew! Certainly not Jews. People think this story is about a Samaritan. It isn't. It is simply saying only one person showed love thus was 'neighborly.' Too many people think this is about 'loving Samaritans.' WRONG! Read it again. Luke 10:28 "Go and show mercy!" That's it. Miss it to your own demise. "I" VERY eptly, understand what the Lord Jesus Christ says. When He speaks, "I" Listen and get Him correctly. Try to be less than wrong (Sorry, I'm sick, and so am not as good at congenial at the moment but I'm trying to make an important point AND I still have your best interest at heart: Truth. Let's follow it! )

    What would be nice, is if you can learn from Jesus. You are frankly and sadly wrong, about what Jesus said as applying to this situation AND what His point was. He didn't say the Samaritan was a Christian, or Jew. He said the Samaritan right, and that we should emulate him, in preference to the religiously-correct Levite.
    "Lon observes" that Barbarian isn't very good at formatting whose quote is whose.

    Quick question: Do you believe that a Muslim who has charity for his neighbor is better than a Christian who does not? If you trust Jesus, the Muslim is right, and the Christian is wrong. Do you trust Him? Or do you accept what He says when it fits your wishes?
    See here? I'd have to go back and see if this is 'me' or you by quote. It looks like my quote but it seems you've rewritten it.

    "Better" how? Is it possible a Christian doesn't have charity? We out give everybody. I've given until it genuinely hurts for EXACTLY this reason: that Christians are givers by 'nature.'

    As far as the rest, you aren't correct and missed Jesus' sermon.


    And yet, I accept what He says, and you will not.
    Er, what you 'think' Jesus said and what He said are two different things. How do YOU like believing a lie made up in your own head? A mistruth, if you prefer. Still the same problem: False belief and false living.



    Get over it. If you act like this with your family, it's no surprise that you're estranged from them. I have a brother who is no longer Catholic; we get along fine.
    I didn't say I was estranged. I am 'right.' It counts.



    Then put down your political axe, and just follow Him. If you were an imitation of Christ, you'd be far better off.
    All of us. For this one, I want to know which is the 'more' loving thing to do with Muslim immigration at present. Is Trump completely wrong that vetting may be a good thing to be a 'good neighbor' to U.S. citizens? I don't think he is. He isn't the poster-boy for loving-kindness, we are simply asking if this is an example of it. It CERTAINLY could be! This is part of my intended service to you: If discussion gets beyond politics to some other really important issues, like our values, it stops the "us/them" politics sometimes. I have a hard time being 'them' too. There are things I really don't like about the Republican party.



    Most people who think they hate the Church don't have any idea what it is, or what Catholics think. You're no different.
    Er, 'half' my family...



    Then do it. Set aside your resentments and just do it. Whether or not your new faith is correct will not be the way He judges you.
    I get the point, but there are a few assumptions in here. What do you mean 'resentment?' What do you mean 'new' faith? Part of the 'political' discussion is an iron-sharpens-iron prospect where I'm entertaining which might be better. I think we have to bath these in prayer. It's better to be more right than more wrong when it is harder to know what to do. Threads like this, imho, are BEST for challenging one another to do just that.



    Who said I was an academic man? There are lots of smart people who never went to college and a lot of them who did, who never adapted the "academic" personna.
    You are a smart enough man. I wouldn't chide you about it if you weren't.


    It's what Jesus says He will decide your eternal home over. Muslims are also told to care for the needy, as a requirement for salvation, as Jesus said.
    I disagree, but this goes away from the politics of it toward the theology of difference. In all my dealings with people, I've never been treated better than by born-again Christians.



    I'm pointing out that our eternal home in heaven or hell, depends (according to Jesus) on the way we treat the needy. No one said anything about Muslims being least. Your bias is showing.
    No bias. Scripture just is what is it is, and we need to get Him right on these matters. Think again: This story was not 'Samaritans are my neighbors.' The story is about "being" that neighbor. I'd think, at the very least, you'd agree with this: We are supposed to love one another AND our enemies included in that. That means, I am, along with you, concerned that I do not mistreat a Muslim. I'm also fairly sure that Musterion's OP is likewise a commitment to the same.



    Except for 2nd Amendment and abortion issues and a few other things, I generally incline to liberal or libertarian views. I'm not foolish enough to think that liberalism or conservatism is required for salvation.


    I'd suggest you focus more on Jesus and less on politics if you want to discuss theology.
    Despite this being in politics, it is still on 'theology' online. I don't think one has to always preclude the other and often enough, they are inextricable and rightly so.



    Which may be why you fear them, and I don't.
    Wait...know them or fear them? It doesn't matter if you fear them or not if you don't know any. I have to RATHER vote according to what little contact information I have about them (mostly from the news). "If" that information is insufficient, one would think a 'liberal' media wouldn't be as inept about reporting. I'm not 'afraid,' I'm trying to be 'responsible.' If it is indeed shown there is a significantly greater risk from that particular group, I think vetting becomes wisdom at that point.



    If he had been Jewish would the idea even come up with you? You're trapped in your assumptions and can't get loose of them.
    Er, no. There have been NO "Jew kills hundreds in protest" headlines. Sorry. Sometimes it is the quick'n'dirty emote rather than the thoughtful contemplating post that causes these liberal/conservative clashes in the first place. Think a bit more. Emote a bit less. Give me something of substance. -Lon
    Last edited by Lon; March 10th, 2018 at 09:28 PM.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Barbarian asks:
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?

    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.
    Link? I'm wondering why you're so shy about showing it to us.

    I don't mean to call your intelligence into question but it is necessary:
    As an alternative to showing us the data, I suppose.

    If you are going to try from 'more academic'
    Academic? I'm just a dumb old barbarian.

    or 'more constitutional
    You do seem to have a somewhat weak appreciation for the Bill of Rights, yes.

    or 'more Christian' by comparisons with me, you are going to lose.
    Never thought of it as a contest. But you might be able to beat me at "who is most humble."

    It isn't that I'm a holier-than-thou (Jesus is the answer) or 'smarter-than-you' (Jesus gave the where-with-all) or am 'more-american' (The Lord Jesus Christ causes who is born here dyed in red-white-blue). I'm just saying by virtue, I have the where-with-all on all counts nor do I put confidence in the flesh.
    Well, who can compete with all that? I'm very intimidated.

    But if you have time, could you link to that stuff that shows the Pew research is wrong? That was my question. If for any reason, you can't, just say so, and we'll go on.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  10. #55
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian asks:
    I showed you what Muslims think from the Pew research. What have you got?
    Er, no. "I" showed Pew research. You then:
    The poll shows American Muslims to be pretty much like the rest of us. That's all there is.
    Link? I'm wondering why you're so shy about showing it to us.
    At the time of the writing, I'd posted other sources 'from' the U.S. that revealed pretty much across board. Given another way: There are only just over a million Muslims in the U.S. The Pew Research numbers, then, are indicative to the whole 'by the numbers.' IOW, the percentage CANNOT change regardless what American Muslims believe, because they are too small a percentage. It is roughly 60% of ALL Muslims either support or are unsure if ISIS is evil. You can't change that NOR try to think that American Muslims are WHOLLY different than any other Muslim. That's just not two eyes open. Sorry.


    As an alternative to showing us the data, I suppose.
    I included two in my post. You? Didn't look them up. Try this one too and look to the comments below. These statistics are documented whether you are ignorant of them or not AND I've given them.
    Me: Two eyes open and willing. You: Missing the ball 3 times now and unwilling to find this answer out, yet 'feigning' an overt interest as if. Learn to be less reprehensible in your debate tactic. You can see I looked 3 times now.


    Academic? I'm just a dumb old barbarian.
    Er, a false humility, imho, is as bad as any other arrogance. I realize it is 'academically' appreciable but as far as I'm concerned, it is just as bad and often worse. It is true that a LOT of academics cannot cut it in the real world and thus 'teach.' You've heard it "Those who can't, teach." I hate to tip the hat toward the behemoth which is the American Public School system, but it is an elephant in the room. I've met some very intelligent teachers and professors, having said that, exceptions to rules.



    You do seem to have a somewhat weak appreciation for the Bill of Rights, yes.
    You think ANY American has a weak appreciation for the BoR's?



    Never thought of it as a contest. But you might be able to beat me at "who is most humble."
    ESPECIALLY if one isn't. False humility ISN'T humility. FAR from it. I'm not into peer pressure or its twin, politically correct. I could give a rip what one thinks is humble or not. Neither, by the way, do you OR you'd not posture on TOL, for instance. Let's leave the 'false' humility behind. Humble is no more OR less, than rightly assessing your own actual prowess. It may come across as incredibly arrogant to one beneath your ability. THEIR problem, not yours! Trying to make yourself look stupid for the benefit of the fragile ego of another is not humility. It is a lie and never good. Never. You'll not convince me otherwise. It isn't arrogance that has me rightly assessing my prowess and abilities. Humility is admitting what is there and accepting it all as true, your ability and lack.



    Well, who can compete with all that? I'm very intimidated.
    See? Easy wasn't it? False humility vs accurate assessment. I'll take accurate and worry later how you bust my bubble on any of it. I 'know' what my strengths and weaknesses are. I'm NOT going to lie about either my prowess or inability. I'd assume that wherever I'm weak, a Christian brother or sister is interested in shoring that up ala Romans 12:5 Philippian

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    But if you have time, could you link to that stuff that shows the Pew research is wrong? That was my question. If for any reason, you can't, just say so, and we'll go on.
    Given 3 of those. If you could bring yourself to see on the last one thread I linked, two things: One, that even the author has seen both sets of data. He gives that as a 'given' in his article, so the evidence is already there. Also two, as noted in the comments section, someone already did the numbers (they didn't give the link either but again, the author acquiesezs the existence of). Finally, as I said, your point was that all American Muslims are different but my contention that doesn't need a link is 1) to ask whether 1 million American Muslims 'can' be dramatically different from 80 million others 2) to point out that if you but add 1 Million to 80 million, assuming perchance you are right and 1 million Muslims ARE different, it doesn't allow statistically for a change in those numbers. Basically, you'd be arguing, 'if' American Muslims are VASTLY different from others, that it isn't 60% but by the numbers only 59.5% (which is still 60% sympathetic toward ISIS). Do you follow that?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  11. #56
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Er, no. "I" showed Pew research.
    At the time of the writing, I'd posted other sources 'from' the U.S. that revealed pretty much across board. Given another way: There are only just over a million Muslims in the U.S. The Pew Research numbers, then, are indicative to the whole 'by the numbers.' IOW, the percentage CANNOT change regardless what American Muslims believe, because they are too small a percentage.
    You're not making any sense.

    It is roughly 60% of ALL Muslims either support or are unsure if ISIS is evil.
    That's not what Pew found. Where did you get that idea?

    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...name-of-islam/

    You can't change that NOR try to think that American Muslims are WHOLLY different than any other Muslim.
    They are actually less open to violence than their fellow Americans:
    Both Muslims and the general public also were asked if there are circumstances under which targeting and killing civilians can be justified in order to further a political, social or religious cause. Roughly eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (84%) say such tactics can rarely (8%) or never (76%) be justified. The share of Muslims who say such tactics can often or sometimes be justified (12%) is similar to the share saying this among the general public (14%). And Muslims are more likely than the public as a whole to say that targeting civilians for political, social or religious causes can never be justified.
    ibid

    You seem to have only one eye open. Sorry.

    (Barbarian asks for some links showing American Muslim support for ISIS)

    I included two in my post. You? Didn't look them up. Try this one too and look to the comments below.[/quote]

    First, your link doesn't have anything about American Muslims. But it does say this:

    In the Muslim world, support for ISIS is low across the board.

    In 15 of the 20 countries shown, support for ISIS is in the single digits. And with the exception of Syria, in no country is it greater than 15%.


    Your site only lists what other Americans suppose the world's Muslims think about ISIS, not what American Muslims actually think. Did you even read the site?

    These statistics are documented whether you are ignorant of them or not AND I've given them.
    According to your site, only 14% of Americans think most Muslims support ISIS. You seem to have both eyes tightly shut.

    Er, a false humility, imho, is as bad as any other arrogance.
    Then, let's have no more of "who's a better Christian", then.

    You think ANY American has a weak appreciation for the BoR's?
    Donald Trump, for example. “Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.
    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second

    Just one of many. Would you like to see some more?

    But I'm still waiting to see your data on what American Muslims think. So far, you've linked to a bunny trail that says nothing at all about the things you claimed. Why is that?

    Just show me that a large proportion of American Muslims support ISIS. Your link claims that even overseas Muslims generally don't. Most Muslim countries have support for ISIS in the single digits, again according to your link. Did you read it at all?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Good post, Lon. As you might have already heard, Barb is a Catholic and therefore, does not adhere to the Gospel that was given to the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus. So far as being a member of the Body of Christ while at the same time clinging to far-left-wing ideology doesn't seem to fit? A true Christian believer, in my opinion, would find that ideology, repulsive and avoid it. So, in my opinion, if someone is confessing to be a Child of God they cannot/would not, align themselves with the far-left Democratic Party as it stands today. I told a very good friend of mine a few years back that, Christians lean more towards the Republican Party and he said; "That appears to be the case." He's also a Christian Brother and teaches adult Sunday School at his church. How a true believer can consider themself a far-left Democrat and call themself a Christian at the same time is beyond my comprehension?
    "Grosnick Marowbe" continues with his "God is a registered Republican" message - which fits right in with his "cookie-cutter" view of Christianity!

    Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Bible realizes that this is nothing more than Comrade Marowbe trying to recreate God in his own conservative American image!

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  14. #58
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    You're not making any sense.
    Not true. I reread it. Very clear. You can either contribute confusion to the writer or the reader or sometimes a combination of both. Generally, I try to reread if I'm not following, which isn't an admission, just being responsible for my side of a discussion. More often than not, I find 'you aren't making sense' only happens when I'm being lazy. That said, there are times I could have been clearer.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That's not what Pew found. Where did you get that idea?
    Different Pew report.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...name-of-islam/
    Here is another and another as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    They are actually less open to violence than their fellow Americans:
    Both Muslims and the general public also were asked if there are circumstances under which targeting and killing civilians can be justified in order to further a political, social or religious cause. Roughly eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (84%) say such tactics can rarely (8%) or never (76%) be justified. The share of Muslims who say such tactics can often or sometimes be justified (12%) is similar to the share saying this among the general public (14%). And Muslims are more likely than the public as a whole to say that targeting civilians for political, social or religious causes can never be justified.
    ibid
    "If" by actuality, you mean after one example, perhaps. I want to know several things: 1) criminal reports. 2) 'type' of violent crime. While I don't want to get beat up, it is WAY better than dead. Etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    seem to have only one eye open. Sorry.
    Let's BOTH keep BOTH eyes open? Its a suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Barbarian asks for some links showing American Muslim support for ISIS)
    ?? Is this the way you keep track? Quirky dialogue ploy?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I included two in my post. You? Didn't look them up. Try this one too and look to the comments below.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    First, your link doesn't have anything about American Muslims.
    Which? I gave 3.

    But it does say this:

    In the Muslim world, support for ISIS is low across the board.

    In 15 of the 20 countries shown, support for ISIS is in the single digits. And with the exception of Syria, in no country is it greater than 15%.
    That's NOT good. You are thinking one in ten Americans 'want to kill you' is a 'good' statistic? Next, the next thanumber is even scarier: 50% 'don't know' if it is good that 10% want to kill you!!! Do you know how to look at statistics Barbarian????

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Your site only lists what other Americans suppose the world's Muslims think about ISIS, not what American Muslims actually think. Did you even read the site?
    Again, I read them to you. You can't get any better than that. If you didn't read that indepth, then you aren't doing the 'both eyes open' thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    According to your site, only 14% of Americans think most Muslims support ISIS. You seem to have both eyes tightly shut.
    It doesn't matter so much, what 'Americans' in general think. It matters what American 'Muslims' think.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Then, let's have no more of "who's a better Christian", then.
    I never mentioned who was a better Christian. I simply intimated if one is a Christian, "Christ" IS his/her concern. If not? Not a Christian. I 'appeal' to Christ for those with Him as the concern. It is very important.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Donald Trump, for example. “Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.
    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second
    Here is a secret that is no secret: I didn't vote for him. Second, he isn't every American. He can't trounce or trump our rights.

    There seems to be a few assumptions here that I'd like to discuss before being thrown into the same bin.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Just one of many. Would you like to see some more?
    Just a guess, but I'd think nobody agrees with Trump regarding trampling Amendment or other Constitutional rights. Trump does speak first, think later at times. So did Obama, on this, before being reminded that 'it ain't gonna happen.' This might be on thread topic yet. I'd think across board, for the most part, ALL Constitutionalists are against banning guns. Guns are never the problem. Wicked people and wicked selfish ideas always are.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    But I'm still waiting to see your data on what American Muslims think.
    Why? I gave it AND summarized as well already.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    So far, you've linked to a bunny trail that says nothing at all about the things you claimed. Why is that?
    You are building strawmen and then strawmen on your strawman. The most important thing is that I've provided a good many links now. You can keep trying to say they don't, but they do. You may have to become a better reader than you are proving to be, but knock off the strawman nonsense. The one link I specifically gave you ALREADY acquiesced the data whether I'm able to come up with that specific link or not. IT ALREADY acquiesced the data exists. I explained that very well to you. You have NO room for the strawman. I put it to rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Just show me that a large proportion of American Muslims support ISIS.
    I DID. LISTEN.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Your link claims that even overseas Muslims generally don't.
    First of all. 1 in 10 is a BAD number, NOT a good one and these in SUPPORT for ISIS. Second, then about half don't know if ISIS is doing bad things. That means they are on the fence as to whether it is good to kill you or not! Use your brain! That's NOT good.

    I WILL die for my faith and for love, not happily, but if that's the demand and the gun is at my head, or is necessary to point another to Jesus, yes. Christians are being beheaded for exactly that. Worse? "IF" you were paying attention, there are MANY Christianwils in jail in Muslim controlled countries. They will be put to death NOT BY ISIS, but by the hoi poi you want us to vet for citizenship. YOU want this. THINK!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Most Muslim countries have support for ISIS in the single digits, again according to your link. Did you read it at all?
    Yes, and better, I UNDERSTAND it better than a good number of people. There are 10 people Jay Sekulow is defending who are on DEATH ROW in MUSLIM countries. Regular ol' run of the Muslims who are NOT ISIS want them dead. 100% of them. Crime? Being Christian. I know of NOT ONE American Muslim coming to their defense. They want them dead too OR don't care. Pay attention to WHO you want to vet AND WHY! And yes, I have links
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Lon;5208484]

    (Barbarian points out that more American Muslims oppose terrorism than other Americans do)

    Different Pew report.

    That says nothing about American Muslims. You're still trying to conflate what Americans think with what people in other countries think. For reasons that seem obvious.
    Most Americans are worried about Islamic extremism, and most Muslim Americans share these concerns.

    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...name-of-islam/

    It doesn't say anything about American Muslim support for ISIS. In fact, it says that American Muslims are pretty much like other Americans.

    Living in a religiously pluralistic society, Muslim Americans are more likely than Muslims in many other largely Muslim-majority nations to have a lot of non-Muslim friends. Only about a third (36%) of U.S. Muslims say all or most of their close friends are also Muslims, compared with a global median of 95% in the 39 countries we surveyed.

    Roughly two-thirds of U.S. Muslims (65%) say religion is very important in their lives. About six-in-ten (59%) report praying at least daily and 43% say they attend religious services at least weekly. By some of these traditional measures, Muslims in the U.S. are roughly as religious as U.S. Christians, although they are less religious than Muslims in many other nations.


    Your source says Muslims in other nations reject ISIS by large majorities. But again, it says nothing about American Muslims.

    Let's BOTH keep BOTH eyes open? Its a suggestion.
    It is a suggestion that you seem to avoid following. Yes, there is overwhelming opposition to ISIS in most Muslim nations. But you've avoided any evidence of what American Muslims think.

    Here's what has you unhappy:
    More Americans express “warmer” feelings toward Muslims on a thermometer scale than they have in the past, while there has been a decline in the share who say Islam is more likely than other religions to encourage violence among its followers. In addition, most say there is little or no support for extremism among U.S. Muslims. And a large – and growing – majority of the public says that Muslims in the United States face a lot of discrimination, while roughly half of U.S. adults say media coverage of Muslims is unfair.
    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/h...ims-and-islam/

    That's NOT good. You are thinking one in ten Americans 'want to kill you' is a 'good' statistic?
    Show us your evidence that they do want to kill me. Not only have you tried to conflate what people in some Muslim countries think, with what American Muslims think, you've assumed that any support for ISIS means those people in other countries want to kill me.

    Do you know how to look at statistics Barbarian????
    Yes, I do. It was a big part of my graduate work. But it doesn't take a statistician to realize that your assumption that what people in other countries think determines what Americans think, is completely unjustified.

    Most Americans are worried about Islamic extremism, and most Muslim Americans share these concerns.

    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.


    Again, I read them to you. You can't get any better than that.
    Why should it alarm you if American Muslims are pretty much like other Americans in those opinions?


    It doesn't matter so much, what 'Americans' in general think. It matters what American 'Muslims' think.
    Notice that what American Muslims think is pretty much the same as what other Americans think. You seem to be so tightly blinkered that you can't get your head around the facts.

    Just a guess, but I'd think nobody agrees with Trump regarding trampling Amendment or other Constitutional rights.
    You're very wrong about that.

    An annual survey published in September by the University of Pennsylvania’s Annenberg Public Policy Center found that 37 percent of Americans cannot name any of the five First Amendment rights, while close to half of those surveyed got freedom of speech but no others. The UPenn survey also found that 39 percent of Americans support allowing Congress to stop the news media from reporting on any issue of national security without government approval.

    Conducted in May, a national survey by the Newseum Institute found that 23 percent of those surveyed think that the First Amendment “goes too far,” while 74 percent say they do not think “fake news” should be protected by the First Amendment.

    http://www.bookweb.org/news/polls-re...-rights-102234


    The most important thing is that I've provided a good many links now.

    None of them say what you claim they say. You've repeatedly presented what Muslims in other countries think is what American Muslims think. It appears you have both eyes tightly closed here.

    First of all. 1 in 10 is a BAD number, NOT a good one and these in SUPPORT for ISIS.
    Show us that one in 10 American Muslisms support ISIS. Quote and checkable source.

    Second, then about half don't know if ISIS is doing bad things.
    In other nations. Show us about American Muslims. And if (as your linked site says) almost all Muslim nations show single-digit support for ISIS, that's a good thing. Irrelevant to the question as to what American Muslims think, though.

    I WILL die for my faith and for love, not happily, but if that's the demand and the gun is at my head, or is necessary to point another to Jesus, yes. Christians are being beheaded for exactly that. Worse? "IF" you were paying attention, there are MANY Christianwils in jail in Muslim controlled countries. They will be put to death NOT BY ISIS, but by the hoi poi you want us to vet for citizenship. YOU want this. THINK!
    You're getting hysterical. The reason American Muslims are so much like other Americans is that they chose to come here, and they like it here. They heard about the American Dream than they want to be part of it.

    If you continue to close both eyes and believe that American Muslims are like ISIS, then you'll be forever deluded. Open your eyes. Both of them.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    (Barbarian points out that more American Muslims oppose terrorism than other Americans do)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    See how to do this? It isn't too difficult, only takes a second and is superior to/than 'barbarian points out.'
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    ▲See? ▲ Far superior to 'Barbarian points out.' At least realize some of our oddballs on TOL talk often in the second and third person. It distracts from intelligent conversation. Already seen these and discussed them btw. A bit more in a second but also some repetition:


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    That says nothing about American Muslims. You're still trying to conflate what Americans think with what people in other countries think. For reasons that seem obvious.
    And you, 'for what seems obvious reasons' seem to think 'American' Muslims are COMPLETELY different than 'just Muslims.' Let me follow your thought a moment: "IF" American Muslims are COMPLETELY different than other Muslims, we SHOULDN'T have Muslim terrorism on U.S. soil by American Muslims, because, according to you, they are COMPLETELY different than other Muslims. At LEAST that is what you are intimating BUT it isn't true. Home-grown Muslims are guilty of all US terrorist attacks since 9/11.

    What does that mean? CLEARLY (and I welcome you to try show it does not) it means American Muslims are NOT peace-loving Muslims because 'some' of them are getting messages from the same faith the other 90% are getting their messages from BUT acting on those messages with Jihad and half of the rest don't know if that is a bad thing AT BEST! At worst? This.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Most Americans are worried about Islamic extremism, and most Muslim Americans share these concerns.
    Doesn't matter. ONE in EVERY ten are for it and killing you. That's the number. HALF of the rest don't know whether that is a bad thing or not "IF" that's the worst!
    There are several others that have the mosque speaker advocating it.... RIGHT HERE in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    It doesn't say anything about American Muslim support for ISIS. In fact, it says that American Muslims are pretty much like other Americans.
    And I challenged that above. There ARE Christians on death row in RUN-OF-THE-MILL average everday joe Muslim countries. Why are they to be put to death by AVERAGE, EVERDAY Muslims? BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIAN! NOT ISIS!!! Get that through your thick skull! These are simply 'Muslims in power' doing everyday MUSLIM things. Killing Christians is EVERYDAY AVERAGE for a MUSLIM! Are you this thick?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Living in a religiously pluralistic society, Muslim Americans are more likely than Muslims in many other largely Muslim-majority nations to have a lot of non-Muslim friends. Only about a third (36%) of U.S. Muslims say all or most of their close friends are also Muslims, compared with a global median of 95% in the 39 countries we surveyed.
    And I applaud your attempt "IF" it works. I WON'T believe it just because you wish upon a star with all your might, however. It ISN'T rational, Barbarian. If you are willing to turn a blind eye (and we ARE discussing both eyes open) to Christians being killed in normal every day run of the mill Muslim hands, you aren't being rational or intelligent or following facts where they lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Roughly two-thirds of U.S. Muslims (65%) say religion is very important in their lives. About six-in-ten (59%) report praying at least daily and 43% say they attend religious services at least weekly. By some of these traditional measures, Muslims in the U.S. are roughly as religious as U.S. Christians, although they are less religious than Muslims in many other nations.
    For me? NO comfort. Not when I KNOW where their faith leads. You may choose to turn a blind eye. See here if you choose otherwise. Some of the headlines: Bibi, Christian mother, to be killed for being a Christian. Christian boy beaten to death in Pakistan by police. Thousands of Christians posting about Jesus face death in Pakistan.

    NORMAL everyday Muslims doing NORMAL every day MUSLIM activity.... Not in America? The home-grown terrorists say you are wrong. And apparently blind. DON'T BE BLIND! Franklin Graham told you it was a religion of war. You didn't and don't believe him? One or both eyes shut? Which star are you wishing upon? I don't want to deport Muslim American citizens. I DO want them to continue to have to denounce terrorism and 'trying' to spread Islam by violence. It is a VERY poor way to spread a religion, EVEN IF, that IS your religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Your source says Muslims in other nations reject ISIS by large majorities. But again, it says nothing about American Muslims.
    You weren't paying attention. 10% MEANS ONE in TEN!!! 'Majority' meto ans nothing like what you think it does. HALF of the others don't KNOW if that's a bad thing. IOW, they KNOW what their faith calls for, just are not AS committed to it. You (hopefully) just watched a video and read to be better informed (ho


    It is a suggestion that you seem to avoid following. Yes, there is overwhelming opposition to ISIS in most Muslim nations. But you've avoided any evidence of what American Muslims think.
    Nope. I saw it. NOT the point. The point again: WHEN Muslims have power, they DO want you dead because you aren't a Muslim. It is as simple and ugly and truthful as that. They ARE killing Christians in ANY country they have the freehand to do so. Normal. Everyday. Run-of-the-mill. Muslims. Regular Joes.

    Here's what has you unhappy:
    More Americans express “warmer” feelings toward Muslims on a thermometer scale than they have in the past, while there has been a decline in the share who say Islam is more likely than other religions to encourage violence among its followers. In addition, most say there is little or no support for extremism among U.S. Muslims. And a large – and growing – majority of the public says that Muslims in the United States face a lot of discrimination, while roughly half of U.S. adults say media coverage of Muslims is unfair.
    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/h...ims-and-islam/

    It'd be WONDERFUL if a few roses and a hug session of Kumbayah did anything good. Do I doubt such a weak display of love and affection is effective? You bet your sweet bippy. Those coming to Christ are of MUCH greater encouragement to me. In and among those numbers are people who genuinely belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. Saddly? --> Fodder for the other 99, to be exploited and killed. I've read the Koran. You? HOW wide open actually ARE your eyes?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Show us your evidence that they do want to kill me. Not only have you tried to conflate what people in some Muslim countries think, with what American Muslims think, you've assumed that any support for ISIS means those people in other countries want to kill me.



    Yes, I do. It was a big part of my graduate work. But it doesn't take a statistician to realize that your assumption that what people in other countries think determines what Americans think, is completely unjustified.
    Er, watch the video. Read the links. You are CLEARLY wrong. Graduate work or not. Wrong. You HAVE to close an eye to believe what you 'want' to believe. It looks ALL KINDS of wishing upon a star singing Kumbayah to me.

    Most Americans are worried about Islamic extremism, and most Muslim Americans share these concerns.
    But not you... right? READ the links Barbarian!!! RUN OF THE MILL EVERDAY Muslims have CHRISTIANS on death row for NOTHING!!!!! NO Run of the mill Muslim is protesting!

    About eight-in-ten U.S. Muslims (82%) say they are either very (66%) or somewhat concerned (16%) about extremism committed in the name of Islam around the world, about the same as the share of the general public that feels this way (83%), according to a new Pew Research Center survey. Only about one-in-six U.S. Muslims (17%) and Americans overall (15%) say they are “not too” or “not at all” concerned about extremism carried out in the name of Islam worldwide. Among both groups, concern about extremism is up 10 percentage points since the Center’s last survey of U.S. Muslims in 2011.

    Reposted for the umpteenth time. So and what? EVERYDAY AVERAGE MUSLIMS have Christians on death row FOR NOTHING, Barbarian! OPEN-YOUR-EYES! Your graduate work was trash if you can't see this.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Why should it alarm you if American Muslims are pretty much like other Americans in those opinions?
    Answered. Christians are on death row in ANY and EVERY country where average, every day Muslims ARE in control. THINK about that Mr. Graduate man!
    Your graduate work is TRASH if you CANNOT meet this incredible truth head on: In ANY and EVERY country where Muslims are in control, Christians are in jail and most headed for death.




    Notice that what American Muslims think is pretty much the same as what other Americans think. You seem to be so tightly blinkered that you can't get your head around the facts.
    No. No I DON'T notice that at ALL! In fact, I KNOW for a fact, that home-grown "MUSLIMS" are responsible for terrorist violence IN America. You didn't notice that? Your graduate work 'seems' to be a bit glittery to me. It DOESN'T look nice to me-at-all. In fact, worse: It greatly concerns me.



    You're very wrong about that.
    No. Point of fact. I'm not. Fact. Linked. Proven. I don't know WHAT your graduate study supposedly confirmed for you. It truly didn't for me BUT I've got two eyes. Worse? I'd LOVE (truly) if your data were correct. It isn't. And that's a fact. RUN-OF-THE-MILL everyday, average Muslims, when in charge, KILL Christians. It is happening NOW. Do something with that statistic. You CAN'T make it go away. Try. I'd LOVE to be wrong, but I'm not.

    An annual survey published in September by the University of Pennsylvania’s Annenberg Public Policy Center found that 37 percent of Americans cannot name any of the five First Amendment rights, while close to half of those surveyed got freedom of speech but no others. The UPenn survey also found that 39 percent of Americans support allowing Congress to stop the news media from reporting on any issue of national security without government approval.
    Meaning 63% can So roughly, you and I are better than a third of Americans when it comes to rights, right?

    Conducted in May, a national survey by the Newseum Institute found that 23 percent of those surveyed think that the First Amendment “goes too far,” while 74 percent say they do not think “fake news” should be protected by the First Amendment.
    "Protected" or "allowed." It wholly depends on what they mean by 'protected.' I support the right of actors, for instance, to sue fake news. You and I have a right to free speech but NOT a right to lie, cheat, and steal from others to express it. So while you have a right to lie, no, I don't protect it and according to my own rights, have equal responsibility and freedom to meet that other head-on. I'd imagine I'm more in agreement than not on these however, whether we are in the majority or minority. Some of these statistics ARE alarming, however. I agree on that.





    None of them say what you claim they say. You've repeatedly presented what Muslims in other countries think is what American Muslims think. It appears you have both eyes tightly closed here.
    No. It is extrapolation, Barbarian. "IF" home-grown "AMERICAN" Muslims become terrorists, and they do, there is NO question that they aren't too far removed from their nonAmerican counterparts NOR is 10% a 'good' number. It is a BAD number, Barbarian.



    Show us that one in 10 American Muslisms support ISIS. Quote and checkable source.
    It doesn't matter. "IF" the link given in this post is correct, 80% of messages from mosques are about using strength to get their way. You can't touch such a statistic nor wish upon a star that the numbers somehow magically change just because someone is on American soil. It doesn't matter if 9 of the 10 don't act upon it. It matters if, indeed, the 'message' is violence. "Sentiment" doesn't get-er-done. Actions and statistics do. This isn't like a deranged child with a gym bag. This is someone ELSE telling someone to go do something with a purpose AND in the NAME of their religion. You CAN'T sweep that under a rug. CAN'T.



    In other nations. Show us about American Muslims. And if (as your linked site says) almost all Muslim nations show single-digit support for ISIS, that's a good thing. Irrelevant to the question as to what American Muslims think, though.
    No. It's a BAD thing, Barbarian. VERY Bad. Wake up.



    You're getting hysterical. The reason American Muslims are so much like other Americans is that they chose to come here, and they like it here. They heard about the American Dream than they want to be part of it.
    Yeah yeah, the whole kumbayah wishing upon a star thing that magically erases 80% (can you grasp that number?) of mosque messages IN America! HOW did you deal with these with your graduate work, Barbarian? What did you deal rightly with when looking into these poor Christians' eyes who are going to be put to death for NO OTHER REASON than they love Jesus? Hysterical? ONE of us should be, probably both. I already said, life/death. Good/evil. Black/white. I hope to God we are passionate about people dying. It is TIME to get a bit hysterical. I hope you don't walk away without crying to the Father about your fellow Christian brothers and sisters who will not see tomorrow. Why? Because and specifically, of a religion being taught and embraced, Barbarian. NO AMOUNT of graduate work CAN or WILL make that go away. Hysterical? Yes. I watch my mom crying her eyes out when she saw churches being destroyed and its people being killed. Hysterical? Yeah. I hope to God I have compassion for my fellow man AND make some kind of wise decision based on that love and compassion. It is all I really care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    If you continue to close both eyes and believe that American Muslims are like ISIS, then you'll be forever deluded. Open your eyes. Both of them.
    IMHO? Your graduate work was fair, at best. If it doesn't give a RIP about Christians killed by Muslims SPECIFICALLY because they ARE Christians and they ARE Muslims, you failed. Isn't THAT really closing one's eyes, Barbarian? HOW can you NOT account for that? How? Explain that too me. Explain why you are NOT hysterical. To me? Not very loving. Not really caring. Not really dealing with things that are MOST important. Show me that, Barbarian.
    Last edited by Lon; March 11th, 2018 at 06:06 PM.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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