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Thread: Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

  1. #391
    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    What I mean is, take your pick: unconscious/soul sleep until bodily resurrection, or consciously (awake and aware) present with the Lord in glory from the first second after physical death. For the believer, what does it matter either way? You're already in Christ and bound for glory while yet in this flesh, likewise whether asleep in the ground for awhile or aware of it immediately.

    This is one controversy I have never understood wasting time arguing over.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  3. #392
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Nope.
    Yes, Musterion, it does matter. Whatever scripture says, that's what I believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Not this pagan, RCC, Casper the friendly ghost, dead saints as eye witnesses supposedly ever hovering about, assertion of his - which he failed to prove through Scripture.



    ______________

    And not to worry, Lon, I appreciate anyone's being forthright with me.

    I prefer it over one's brown nosing me.

    Always.

    In short, pride has nothing to do with my disagreement with you on one thing, or another.

    I disagree with you, Lon, where you fail to prove an assertion through Scripture.

    The rest is a rib of what I perceive is your error - your obvious reading into a thing.

    But you're a Calvinist, after all.



    Rom. 5: 6-8.
    Disagree on sustainable scriptural premises, and again against the other. These witnesses are a 'huge cloud.' It speaks for itself. ONLY a preconceived notion would miss these clear indicators in scripture. I'm NOT the one with an agenda. Calvinism doesn't care which is which BUT for what scripture says.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes, Musterion, it does matter. Whatever scripture says, that's what I believe.




    Disagree on sustainable scriptural premises, and again against the other. These witnesses are a 'huge cloud.' It speaks for itself. ONLY a preconceived notion would miss these clear indicators in scripture. I'm NOT the one with an agenda. Calvinism doesn't care which is which BUT for what scripture says.
    Again, you failed to prove Scripturally, that your assertion is nothing more than that: your assertion.

    While your use of the phrases "preconceived notion" and "an agenda" is very impoverished.

    As if either is not only not always the reality, but only a negative, and only the other guy's reality.

    Fact is, everyone has "an agenda."

    In fact, countless agendas...all day long, as to all sorts of things, throughout one's every day.

    The question is then, what any particular agenda might be; whether it is well-intentioned or not; unintended or not; wise or not; well-informed or not; what standard of measurement is being applied when attempting to determine what said agenda is, etc.

    Likewise with the phrase "preconceived notion."

    We all form them constantly, and throughout our everyday, and on a million things.

    And, I've learned too much in life and from far too many a supposed enemy to allow myself to simply comparmentalize such things into an either all out black, or and all out white.

    Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.

  5. #394
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Again, you failed to prove Scripturally, that your assertion is nothing more than that: your assertion.
    This is going to hurt: ONLY for the unstudied, Danoh. You are frankly ignorant of every commentary given out there. EVERY one of them. Yep. You came in with a snarky 'nope' as if "Danoh" is some great magnificent scholar able to put them all to shame with his outrageous handling of God's Word as if he is the new pope of all popes. Guess again pal. You are simply posturing and emoting beyond your pay grade, and frankly, and sadly, it shows. I'm not at all worked up over your postulations and declarations. You just aren't this big of a man nor have the prowess, frankly. You proved that by posting in the blind in pure ignorance. You HAVEN'T studied this matter out and it shows. I've been through Hebrews a good number of times. While I can (graciously even as I have already done) acquiesce a bit of your interpretation as allowable YET surmised, not plain from the text as mine is, you ineptly think it was your deduction. INDUCTIVELY, all men point to the interpretation that I've laid out: These were the men "witnesses" given in chapter 11. Sorry, it is just this clear and you lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    While your use of the phrases "preconceived notion" and "an agenda" is very impoverished.
    I have a WEALTH of scholars at my disposal. NONE of them say what you've said. Several display a bit of your thoughts but not one of them contradicts that the witnesses are found in chapter 11. That is YOUR weak interpretation DEDUCED from a theological bent NOT from the text. You are frankly, uneducated over the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    As if either is not only not always the reality, but only a negative, and only the other guy's reality.
    Here is a novel idea, pick up a couple of commentaries and AT LEAST see if anybody else agrees with you AND disagrees with my take (none do). That way, you AT LEAST know how hard to push your poor showing. You simply look ignorant with this posturing. Go ahead. You are digging your own assessment here and looking worse for the wear. It frankly appears as one who hasn't studied this matter. Your problem, Danoh. You shouldn't have tried "off the top of your head." Your recollection looked foolish for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Fact is, everyone has "an agenda."
    Right. Some agendas are nobler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    In fact, countless agendas...all day long, as to all sorts of things, throughout one's every day.
    Fact, some agendas are nobler.
    The question is then, what any particular agenda might be; whether it is well-intentioned or not; unintended or not; wise or not; well-informed or not; what standard of measurement is being applied when attempting to determine what said agenda is, etc.
    A good handle on what your peers and predecessors instead of 'off the top of your head' would be a noble start

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Likewise with the phrase "preconceived notion."

    We all form them constantly, and throughout our everyday, and on a million things.
    Yet some of us compare our notions to those who have preceded us, and check to see how arrogant our own pronouncement and posture might be. I'm LESS audacious when many disagree with me. THIS particular is not the case. Most if not all, disagree rather, with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    And, I've learned too much in life and from far too many a supposed enemy to allow myself to simply comparmentalize such things into an either all out black, or and all out white.
    "Nope" you haven't. THAT WAS black and white, Danoh. YOU came up with it while I allow the secondary. You frankly, disallowed it, obviously not knowing where most commentary and scholars fall over this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.
    Same verse you gave for "You're a Calvinist! "

    I guarantee you Calvinism has nothing, nadda, to do with this. Arminians, Calvinists, and even a good many MAD agree these witnesses are those from chapter 11. It is a verse that STRONGLY supports being absent from the body is present with the Lord. It doesn't matter if you disagree. You could have done so much more graciously and less snarky that your 'nope.' You are on shaky ground with the assertion when most disagree with you. Commentaries aren't my mainstay, but it is nice when I find intelligent men and women with the wherewithal that I happen to agree with. It authenticates my studies and gives me the acknowledgement that my studies aren't in vain and are producing the desired exegetical affect. I desire to be less bent in my interpretations of scripture. Authentication and confirmation are good ways to check. You don't have to be a scholar, but you should walk with a few. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  7. #395
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    What I mean is, take your pick: unconscious/soul sleep until bodily resurrection, or consciously (awake and aware) present with the Lord in glory from the first second after physical death. For the believer, what does it matter either way? You're already in Christ and bound for glory while yet in this flesh, likewise whether asleep in the ground for awhile or aware of it immediately.

    This is one controversy I have never understood wasting time arguing over.
    I acquiesce this, but I'm convinced rather that it is the former. Again, I acquiesce, as you do, that the other 'could' be, at least that I can see how one can come to that conclusion, but I'm also convince the Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul make it clear we do not soul sleep, so when one pushes it, I feel a need to help one recognize their 'my way is right, yours is wrong, period' is a poor showing. I can let it go as well, but have to wonder why another pushes this hard with "nope, you are wrong, period." It is coming out swinging. I've studied enough to know what my position, at least, is over the matter. "No you can't logically or scripturally believe that way" is a challenge that I'm willing to meet head on, especially when I believe the opposite, though not that important of a disagreement to me, is less scripturally tenable. The majority of Christian theologians list 'soul sleep' as unbiblical (by a very large number and all using scriptures as proof). We need to be seeking biblical answers and responses. In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  8. #396
    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    The majority of Christian theologians list 'soul sleep' as unbiblical (by a very large number and all using scriptures as proof).
    Do try to avoid appeals to authority.

    Just consider that at the point the pivotal passage for awareness after bodily death was spoken at the time when Christ did not speak to the crowds without hiding His words in parables.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  10. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I acquiesce this, but I'm convinced rather that it is the former. Again, I acquiesce, as you do, that the other 'could' be, at least that I can see how one can come to that conclusion, but I'm also convince the Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul make it clear we do not soul sleep, so when one pushes it, I feel a need to help one recognize their 'my way is right, yours is wrong, period' is a poor showing. I can let it go as well, but have to wonder why another pushes this hard with "nope, you are wrong, period." It is coming out swinging. I've studied enough to know what my position, at least, is over the matter. "No you can't logically or scripturally believe that way" is a challenge that I'm willing to meet head on, especially when I believe the opposite, though not that important of a disagreement to me, is less scripturally tenable. The majority of Christian theologians list 'soul sleep' as unbiblical (by a very large number and all using scriptures as proof). We need to be seeking biblical answers and responses. In Him -Lon
    Yo, brown-nose - you STILL failed to prove through Scripture, this pagan, dead saints watching people in this world, foolishness of yours.

    You're quite the brown nose - I'll give ya that.



    Thank God for Rom. 5:6-8.

  11. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Yo, brown-nose -
    1) Gross term, choose another more appropriate one when discussing the things of our Lord and Savior.
    2) It is a ridiculous claim since there is nobody here to kiss-up to. It makes it yet another lame incomprehensible attack on par with "Calvinist!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    you STILL failed to prove through Scripture, this pagan, dead saints watching people in this world, foolishness of yours.
    No, I did for people who can read. For people who can't AND are just debating "off the top of their head" instead of actually reading the scripture?

    You are correct. I failed to prove it to them and have little interest in trying to 'prove' it to someone dense. Musterion I take the caution regarding an 'appeal' to authority alone, however, scripture also speaks of the intelligence of sharing all good things with one's teacher which does fall under 'appeal to authority.' Simply: "My teachers who also study scriptures diligently, disagree with you." It is its own argument when nearly ALL of them say the same thing. It is, imho, no longer an appeal to authority after that. JW's believe in Soul Sleep and very few others. When simpleton cults come up with stuff like this, I do fall into the line of thinking with smarter men AND believers rather than those caught in their own imaginings and still trying to please the Savior Judaized and deaf to His Spirit. That said, this one is not a big contention with me. It is 'how' it was broached. I'm the one who studied. The other is 'off the top of his head.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    You're quite the brown nose - I'll give ya that.
    Again, gross term unworthy of this discussion as well as literally nobody here that I'm worried about pleasing. Try again on both counts, first to please the Lord, then to not toss out lame 'off the top of your head' accusations that don't even apply to anything or anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post


    Thank God for Rom. 5:6-8.
    Thank God I have a HUGE cloud of witnesses and you've literally nobody with your "nope" and "off the top of your head."
    No, I can't prove anything to a thick head like you. No, I disregard your 'nope' because frankly you don't have the prowess to contend with your very much private maverick interpretation. No thank you. I'll keep what I studied instead of what came 'off the top of your head.' Your are just no one's gift to bible study and proper hermeneutics. While I'll heed Musterion's call both to drop this and not appeal to authority, there is YET some decent amount of comfort to know I'm following in good footsteps. As I said, there are MAD and a lot of them who agree with me on this as well. "Nope" was over-the-top and nothing but asserting. You, my friend, are the one who is doing the loose interpretation. Remove the chapter division between 11 and 12. That IS my proof. It is all in my humble but studied opinion, that anyone needs (again, in my humble but studied opinion). You can have the last word. The only thing I'm interested in, is what is biblically tenable and simply giving the result of my study, as I've already given. You can "nope" and "off the top of your head" all you like.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    While I'll heed Musterion's call both to drop this and not appeal to authority, there is YET some decent amount of comfort to know I'm following in good footsteps.
    Unless they're wrong.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post


    Unless they're wrong.
    In which case he can always deflect some more.



    Rom. 5: 6-8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post


    Unless they're wrong.
    It happens. Often? Not really, not when we are talking hermeneutics. It is what is derived after the study that tends to be problematic. We do sometimes allow our theology to inform our bible study instead of the other way around, but there is isn't any of that going on here on my part or on the part of commentaries. I suppose it is yet another appeal to authority to mention your agreement but 'if' I esteem your prowess, it isn't just your assertion, but your trustworthiness. That, I think, is bankable.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    That, I think, is bankable.
    So is this.

    Matthew 13:34

    Fail to take that into account when elevating something He said IN THAT CONTEXT to the level of a hard and fast doctrine, and you've made a big mistake.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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