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Thread: Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't think that's what saves us, but I do think that's why we are saved--to live according to God's commands. Probably not pertinent to this discussion.
    Oh but it is pertinent to this discussion. It is about the life of the spirit. You have no life in you if you do not have the Spirit, and the Spirit is not given unless you believe and obey Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post

    I'm not quite ready to make "spirit" and "soul" equal.
    I didn’t make them equal; but, we will let that part go in our discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post

    No, I haven't/don't. Have/do you?
    I have. So maybe too it is why it is more real for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post

    I think it could.
    There is no way that Paul being out of his body and with Christ could not mean living in heaven.

    22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post

    I tend to think of the "gates of hell" as a metaphor for the permanency of death, and Christ overcame that.
    It means exactly what the scriptures say. It means that Jesus died and went to prison/hell and preached the gospel to those who have died; and, the gates of hell could not keep him from raising himself from the dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post

    In that case, what part of heaven have you actually seen and experienced with your spirit? If we are experiencing heaven right now in the spirit, can we hope for something better between death and resurrection? Or is it the same? will that dim mirror we see things in now be made bright by then? It's hard to equate the two things just from that verse.
    One having the Holy Spirit and living through that Spirit and the Spirit living through you is what it is like in heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But that idea was the basis for your previous argument:
    But you've missed the other possibility--that some things might take place at the same time. Jesus might appear at the time you regain consciousness. Not everything happens serially, especially with an all-knowing God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But you've missed the other possibility--that some things might take place at the same time. Jesus might appear at the time you regain consciousness. Not everything happens serially, especially with an all-knowing God.
    Could you please explain your point in more detail because I have no idea in regard to what you are saying.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Could you please explain your point in more detail because I have no idea in regard to what you are saying.

    Thanks!
    Thanks for asking, Jerry.

    I'm just trying to say that the bible presents things from a human point of reference most of the time. And if the human has no awareness for part of the time that passes, that passing of time does not come into the person's mind. We dealt with this kind of thing when discussing whether Joshua's long day was really the sun stopping, or whether the earth was stopped (there are other options, I suppose, but these were the two we were discussing at the time). The text clearly indicates that Joshua asked for the sun to be stopped. To "stop" the sun for an earth observer in our current understanding of the solar system would require that God not stop the sun, but send it around the earth at the same rotational velocity as the earth's (the moon, too) so that it appears stopped in the sky.

    But if the earth were to stop spinning, the effect to Joshua and crew would be what he asked for--that the sun would appear to have stopped, as well as the moon. Both fit Joshua's words, and both are possible for God, right? But neither fit the literal words Joshua used from God's point of view.

    In the same kind of way, if the text speaks of a moment of life ending for a person, and a new life beginning the next moment, with no apparent time in between--that may just be that person's perception, perfectly valid, but not the whole picture. Perhaps there were a couple of thousand years that passed while the observer wasn't observing. God didn't explain to Joshua how He stopped the sun, and Joshua didn't know any difference between what God did and what he asked for. Nor need God explain to that person all that happened to make it appear that as soon as he was absent from the body he was present with the Lord. I don't know the mechanism either. I can understand why some go to the soul sleep idea (especially with all the verses that talk about a person "sleeping" when it means death).

    But that might not be the only option--I don't know the mind of God nor can I comprehend the tools at His disposal. But as I'm presenting this, my attempt is not to throw out any scripture in favor of another, but to use them all as equally inspired by the same Holy Spirit. That's why I keep pointing you back to scriptures that your model doesn't seem to take into account, but rather to ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    In the same kind of way, if the text speaks of a moment of life ending for a person, and a new life beginning the next moment, with no apparent time in between--that may just be that person's perception, perfectly valid, but not the whole picture.
    I still do not see how that relates to what Paul said here:

    "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
    (2 Cor.5:6,8).

    What I understand here is that a person will either be alive physically in his own body or he will be present with the Lord in heaven. I do not see anything that even hints of an intermediate state. Either one or the other but no in between.

    What do you say about that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Soul sleep believers try to use scripture from Ecclesiastes to support their false beliefs that our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies
    You seem to be confusing the soul with the spirit.
    The spirit is not alive, the spirit makes the body live.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us look at the passage again:

    "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
    (2 Cor.5:6,8).

    Both the Greek words translated "present" and "absent" are verbs, meaning "to stay at home" and "to depart" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    With that in view give me your interpretation of the meaning of verse 8.

    2 Corinthians 5:1-10 CJB
    1 We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven. 2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours. 3 With this around us we will not be found naked. 4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life. 5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.

    6 So we are always confident — we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord; 7 for we live by trust, not by what we see. 8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.

    9 Therefore, whether at home or away from home, we try our utmost to please him; 10 for we must all appear before the Messiah’s court of judgment, where everyone will receive the good or bad consequences of what he did while he was in the body.


    Paul stated his physical body is a temporary home, but his body in the resurrection will be a permanent home.
    Paul is not contradicting what he had previously wrote that the change would happen at the resurrection:

    1 Corinthians 15:50-52 CJB
    50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay. 51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed! 52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
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  8. The Following User Says Thank You to genuineoriginal For Your Post:

    Derf (March 13th, 2018)

  9. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Derf, let us look at the following passage again:

    "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).

    I will give you my interpretation of the meaning of what is said in "bold" and then if you do not agree with my interpretation then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

    Paul speaks of two different things in these verses, one is in regard to being in a physical body and the other is in regard to being with the LORD.

    He is saying that when not in the body (being physically dead) we are present with the Lord. And since at the time when Paul wrote those words the Lord was in heaven (and still is) then we can understand that when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven.

    Again, if I said anything here that you think is in error then tell me exactly what I said that you think is in error.
    You are ignoring what was written in 2 Corinthians 5:1
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    There are other scriptures to use to prove the conscious life of the spirit after the death of the body, if not that scripture.
    The spirit is not a conscious life, that is the soul.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    You are ignoring what was written in 2 Corinthians 5:1
    No I am not.

    If you have any proof that I am then let's hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No I am not.

    If you have any proof that I am then let's hear it.
    Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that he is currently at home in a tent (mortal body) but will be given a permanent building (immortal body) to be in.
    In 2 Corinthians 5:6, Paul stated that while he is in his tent (mortal body), he is not in the permanent building (immortal body).
    In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul stated that he is willing to leave his tent (mortal body) and move into his permanent building (immortal body).
    In 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul states that the change from mortal body to immortal body will happen at the last trump (and by inference, it won't happen before the last trump).
    Learn to read what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I still do not see how that relates to what Paul said here:

    "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
    (2 Cor.5:6,8).

    What I understand here is that a person will either be alive physically in his own body or he will be present with the Lord in heaven. I do not see anything that even hints of an intermediate state. Either one or the other but no in between.

    What do you say about that?
    You are correct--there's no hint of an intermediate state in those two verses. But there are dozens of passages about a sleep state. Those are the ones you are ignoring. Put the two types together, and come up with a model that accounts for both. (By the way, @God's Truth doesn't have the same problem as her model says the body is the part of us that sleeps, while the spirit is awake. I'll handle this a bit more below, but it shows more consistency than your model.)

    Here is an example:
    [1Co 15:51 KJV] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    So while we shall not all sleep, some will. Can you sleep while you're awake? You are saying there is no time of sleep at all.

    Let's compare the two passages, both from Paul, both to the Corinthians. 2 Cor 5:8 says that we are willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. This says nothing about whether there might be some other state or even several other states--it doesn't confirm it, nor does it rule it out. It's silent on other states.

    1 Cor 15:51 speaks of three states, just in that one verse. Alive (those who shall not sleep), dead (asleep), and changed (a final state for either of the other two). While your verse doesn't rule out a sleep (unawareness), my verse insists on it. Thus, whatever your model is, to be biblically consistent, it has to include a sleep state.

    We still have to define what that sleep state entails, and that is where we're likely to go different paths, but if you say there's no gap between present in the body and absent from the body, what do you think the sleep state is?

    A big question in determining what that sleep state entails is determining what part of us is the important part. If we say the body is the important part, then the ones who sleep would refer to the bodies that are dead. But since the bodies decay, it seems like the important part is the spirit--that's the part of us that is aware, and what we usually mean when we say someone is in heaven with Jesus immediately after he dies. So if Paul is talking about the dead as if they are asleep, it seems like he would more likely be talking about the spirit, don't you think? and if it's the spirit, when does the spirit sleep in your model?

    Your chapter also talks about different states in terms of the clothing metaphor. And there are three states mentioned there--clothed in an earthly house, clothed in a heavenly house, and naked. These three states do not necessarily associate directly with the three in 1 Cor 15:51. The naked state is the one that is of interest. We're not sure what it means, but it seems to me that it means not having a body, either earthly or heavenly. Since you insist that our "presence with the Lord" (1 Cor 5:8) is when we are in heaven without a body, it seems to align with the heavenly state prior to Christ's coming (I think this is your position). But that sounds like a blissful time, a time we would long for. But Paul explicitly says we do not long for that state:
    [2Co 5:4 NKJV] For we who are in [this] tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    You are correct--there's no hint of an intermediate state in those two verses. But there are dozens of passages about a sleep state.
    But earlier you said that when a person enters heaven to be with the Lord he will be conscious.

    Since there is no intermediate state then when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven. And his physical body will be turned to dust and he will be waiting to be raised in a spiritual body.

    If he has a body when he goes to be with the Lord and he is not naked then what kind of body will he have then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that he is currently at home in a tent (mortal body) but will be given a permanent building (immortal body) to be in.
    In 2 Corinthians 5:6, Paul stated that while he is in his tent (mortal body), he is not in the permanent building (immortal body).
    In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul stated that he is willing to leave his tent (mortal body) and move into his permanent building (immortal body).
    In 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul states that the change from mortal body to immortal body will happen at the last trump (and by inference, it won't happen before the last trump).
    I didn't say anything that contradicts anything you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But earlier you said that when a person enters heaven to be with the Lord he will be conscious.
    Yes, I did, and so did you. So no sleep state there. What does "sleep" mean to you in 1 Cor 15:51?
    Since there is no intermediate state then when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven. And his physical body will be turned to dust and he will be waiting to be raised in a spiritual body.

    If he has a body when he goes to be with the Lord and he is not naked then what kind of body will he have then?
    The yellow highlight is what I'm saying is your false premise. And it leads you to conclude (falsely) that a person is naked in heaven, when Paul seems to think nakedness is a bad thing. Now, it could be that the nakedness is not a bad thing, and Paul was mistaken, or it could be that the nakedness is a bad thing and we will be left in a bad state--one that is worse than either clothed state, according to Paul, but that doesn't seem to be something we would long for (as Paul said we don't long for it).

    This conversation will work best if we both try to answer each other's questions instead of just replying with our own. I've done it some, too, but let's try not to just fire back questions.

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