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Thread: Rightly Dividing MADs

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    Rightly Dividing MADs

    Great little read by Mid-Acts Pastor Justin Johnson...

    Mid-Acts Dispensational Straw Men

    A straw man is not a real man. It scares the birds away because to them it looks like a real man. If you burn down a straw man, you have not hurt anyone. If you think you have, you’re a bird brain.

    There are many straw men that constantly get burned in opposition to mid-Acts Pauline dispensational right division. It is a shame when strangers walk into our field and think they are talking about the real issue, when they are not.

    Unfortunately, it is often Pauline practitioners and preachers that are to be blamed for setting up these straw men to be burned in the first place. Here are a few things grace preachers say that create straw men.

    When you hear these things, know that this is a man of straw that is easily burned. Your message needs to be much more clarified.

    “Romans through Philemon is to us”

    Paul wrote thirteen epistles and they are the books from Romans to Philemon, but finding your instructions is not as cut and dry as picking certain books. The sentiment behind this oversimplification is to communicate the exclusively Pauline location of mystery truth in the Bible.

    However, there are places in Paul’s epistles where Paul is not writing about us. Consider Rom 2:17 where he speaks to a Jew resting in the law, or Rom 9-11 where he speaks about a remnant of Israel according to prophecy.

    The tools of dispensational context need be applied just as much to Paul’s thirteen epistles as to the rest of the Bible. It is true that in Paul’s thirteen epistles we find our doctrine, but it is not true that everything in Romans through Philemon is our doctrine. That straw man is tinder.

    “Twelve apostles for Israel, one apostle for the Body of Christ”

    This contrast has the good intention of showing the uniqueness of Paul’s apostleship, and rightly so. There were a specific number of apostolic offices for Israel to correspond to the number of their tribes: twelve (Matt 19:28).

    That Paul was singularly called in the beginning to be the apostle of the Gentiles speaks to the unity of Jew and Gentile in one body (Paul being both Jew and Roman – Rom 11:13). There are no tribes in the body of Christ (James 1:1 misses this mystery).

    However, it is easy to light a fire on this straw man. It is clear that there was more than one apostle in the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:28; 1 Thess 2:6; Eph 4:11; 1 Cor 4:9). Others were called by the Spirit so to be after Paul.

    When you make the only apostle in the body the apostle Paul, then passages such as Eph 3:5 must wrongly include the twelve apostles. Best not build this straw man.

    “Paul didn’t preach the kingdom”

    This straw man suffers from being an incomplete thought. Paul teaches the kingdom in over a dozen places in his writings (yes, even after Acts 28).

    He stayed in Rome two whole years “preaching the kingdom of God” (Acts 28:31). He spends ample time explaining to the Corinthians how sin does not belong in the kingdom of God (1 Cor 4:20; 1 Cor 6:9-10). All saved members of the body have been translated into the “kingdom of his dear Son” and are “called unto his kingdom and glory” (Col 1:13; 1 Thess 2:12).

    While Paul did preach the kingdom of God (God’s universal dominion over all things in the Lord Jesus Christ – Eph 1:10), he did not preach the gospel of the kingdom as the twelve apostles taught before him. The gospel of the kingdom is the good news that Israel’s Davidic earthly prophesied literal kingdom is at hand (Mark 1:14). Paul was not sent to preach that message.

    When this straw man is burned, people dance in the streets thinking dispensationalism is dead not knowing their brainless victim’s true identity.

    “There are two gospels in the Bible”

    This is an attempt to combat the notion that there is only one gospel message through the entire scripture, but it does not go far enough.

    In the Bible there are many gospels (yes, and only one way by which men are saved). There is a gospel of the kingdom (explained above), gospel of grace, gospel of circumcision, an everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6), and a few others.

    The gospel message God sends corresponds to what God is doing, and how men ought to respond. Unless God only changed what he was doing once, then there are more than two gospels. This man of straw is destined to burn in effigial glory.

    “Peter went to Jews, Paul to Gentiles”

    Many straw men are created by oversimplification. This one will burn for a long time.

    Obviously, Peter went to the Gentile Cornelius in Acts 10. (Although he was sent after Paul got saved.) Obviously, Paul went to Jews in synagogues (as well as Gentiles) throughout the book of Acts.

    It was always God’s purpose to bless Jew and Gentile. The key is that the message Peter and Paul spoke to these men was different. Peter was to bless Gentiles only after Israel’s rise (Acts 11:19; Luke 24:47). Paul went to Jews out of a desire to see them saved by God’s grace without Israel or their law.

    Due to the changing dispensation from God, Peter limited his commission to the existing circumcision in Gal 2:9, whereas Paul was a chosen vessel to go to all unbelievers: Jew or Gentile (Acts 9:15).

    Conclusion

    There are many other straw men that people try to shoot down, while the real issues stand a distance away unscathed. Don’t be fooled by the gunfire, look at what they are shooting at.

    A failure to communicate will lead to a failure for men to see the fellowship of Christ in a mystery (Eph 3:9).

    If you thought any of these straw men was the heart of dispensational truth, then perhaps you need to study these issues out. Your faith is flammable.

    If we are ever to make progress in making all men see, we must make clear what it means to be mid-Acts Pauline dispensational. It must be made clear so that people can attack the right target and see if it withstands the fire.

    If it stands, then it is true. What should be burned up is the chaff of oversimplification and poor workmanship that creates these straw men.
    http://graceambassadors.com/midacts/...onal-straw-men

    Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    While Paul did preach the kingdom of God (God’s universal dominion over all things in the Lord Jesus Christ – Eph 1:10), he did not preach the gospel of the kingdom as the twelve apostles taught before him.
    Here is the gospel which the Twelve preached:

    "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick"
    (Lk.9:1-2).

    That is the exact same gospel which Paul speaks of here:

    "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:25).

    According to Pastor Johnson even though the Twelve and Paul were all preaching the kingdom of God Paul was not preaching the same gospel as the Twelve!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is the gospel which the Twelve preached:

    "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick"
    (Lk.9:1-2).

    That is the exact same gospel which Paul speaks of here:

    "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:25).

    According to Pastor Johnson even though the Twelve and Paul were all preaching the kingdom of God Paul was not preaching the same gospel as the Twelve!
    That article was written about someone just like you.

    Paul preached a Universal kingdom.

    In contrast, the Twelve had preached only its Earthly aspect.

    I can see how an Interplanner might confuse the two as being one and the same.

    But you falsely claim you are Mid-Acts; thus your abject failure at the things that differ between the two.

    Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of ALL his holy prophets since the world began.

    IN CONTRAST TO...

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    Mid-Acts you...are not.

    Acts 17: 11, 12.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    IN CONTRAST TO...
    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures" (Ro.1:1-2).

    Since the gospel of God was promised in the OT then it is not the same gospel which was kept secret since the world began.

    You are nothing but a Bullingerite posing as a Mid-Acts dispensationalists!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is the gospel which the Twelve preached:

    "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick"
    (Lk.9:1-2).

    That is the exact same gospel which Paul speaks of here:
    "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:25).

    According to Pastor Johnson even though the Twelve and Paul were all preaching the kingdom of God Paul was not preaching the same gospel as the Twelve!
    How can you confuse these two?

    Did Paul preach healing the sick? Did Paul preach the kingdom come?

    Did Paul preach any of this?

    Mark 16:17-18 (AKJV/PCE)
    (16:17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (16:18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    If so, why was Paul leaving his friend sick?

    2Tim 4:20 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:20) Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

    And why recommend wine for a stomach problem? Why not just heal him?

    1Tim 5:23 (AKJV/PCE)
    (5:23) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

    What difference do you see in the ministry of the twelve and the one?

    I've never been able to figure out what you think the dispensational distinction is between them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I've never been able to figure out what you think the dispensational distinction is between them.
    So you actually think that when Paul preached to the circumcision he preached the "gospel of the uncircumcision" to them instead of the "gospel of the circumcision"?

    The heart and soul of the gospel of the kingdom (the gospel of the circumcision) is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And that is exactly what Paul preached to the Jews during the Acts period:

    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ"
    (Acts 9:20,22).

    At that time Paul had not yet received the gospel which he was to preach among the Gentiles. He wrote the following:

    "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).

    When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that the gospel he preached to the Jews at Act 9 was not the gospel of the circumcision.

    Rightly divide that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So you actually think that when Paul preached to the circumcision he preached the "gospel of the uncircumcision" to them instead of the "gospel of the circumcision"?
    Where would you get such an idiotic idea? You are constantly a false accuser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The heart and soul of the gospel of the kingdom (the gospel of the circumcision) is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And that is exactly what Paul preached to the Jews during the Acts period:

    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ"
    (Acts 9:20,22).
    What else would he preach to those that had already rejected that information? They cannot get anywhere until they first believe this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    At that time Paul had not yet received the gospel which he was to preach among the Gentiles. He wrote the following:
    "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).

    When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that the gospel he preached to the Jews at Act 9 was not the gospel of the circumcision.
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Rightly divide that!
    Sir, yes sir!

    Questions:
    • Why was Paul first given the same gospel as the twelve?
    • Why did God need a thirteenth apostle for the twelve tribes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures" (Ro.1:1-2).

    Since the gospel of God was promised in the OT then it is not the same gospel which was kept secret since the world began.

    You are nothing but a Bullingerite posing as a Mid-Acts dispensationalists!
    It is the Bullingerite that separates that into asserting that Paul had preached two gospels, one prophesied; one, a mystery.

    The gospel of God is an umbrella term that encompasses ALL good news (gospels: plural) concerning Christ

    HE...was Prophesied.

    Paul is asserting that he has been separated unto the gospel of God by the very Christ who was Prophesied.

    The very Christ Who's resurrection from the dead proved He had been said Prophesied Christ.

    He is asserting that said very Christ gave him his Apostleship among the Gentiles.

    He is talking about his Christ given authority.

    He repeats this same understanding in Romans 15: 1-23.

    If anyone is asserting more than one Pauline gospel it is you and or others - it is neither I, nor Pastor Justin.

    And that I am aware of, Stam, Baker, O'Hair, Jordan, Sadler, Kurth, and many, many, many more ALL hold to only one Pauline gospel - ALL OF IT - "hid in God" til Paul.

    Yours is a confused hybrid.

    Acts 17: 11, 12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Where would you get such an idiotic idea? You are constantly a false accuser.


    What else would he preach to those that had already rejected that information? They cannot get anywhere until they first believe this fact.


    ???


    Sir, yes sir!

    Questions:
    • Why was Paul first given the same gospel as the twelve?
    • Why did God need a thirteenth apostle for the twelve tribes?


    I suspect we'll be having much more fun with Jerry about these issues than we've been able to have with IP.

    At least Jerry posts the various, cherry picked passages he so clearly reads his notions into.



    Rom. 5: 6-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Where would you get such an idiotic idea?
    Tell me what gospel which you think that Paul preached in the synagogues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Why was Paul first given the same gospel as the twelve?
    Do you not know that the Lord gave him a ministry to the Jews as well as one to the Gentiles?

    What other gospel would he preach to the Jews but the one which the Twelve preached to them:


    "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick" (Lk.9:1-2).

    That is the exact same gospel which Paul speaks of here:

    "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:25).

    I have already shown you that at the time he was preaching to the Jews at Acts 9 he hadn't even received the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles but you cannot even understand this simple thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    He is asserting that said very Christ gave him his Apostleship among the Gentiles.
    Did you not know that Paul was also given a ministry to the Jews as well?

    What gospel would he preach to the Jews, the gospel of the circumcision or the gospel of the uncircumcision?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    How can you confuse these two?

    Did Paul preach healing the sick? Did Paul preach the kingdom come?

    Did Paul preach any of this?

    Mark 16:17-18 (AKJV/PCE)
    (16:17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (16:18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    If so, why was Paul leaving his friend sick?

    2Tim 4:20 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:20) Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

    And why recommend wine for a stomach problem? Why not just heal him?

    1Tim 5:23 (AKJV/PCE)
    (5:23) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

    What difference do you see in the ministry of the twelve and the one?

    I've never been able to figure out what you think the dispensational distinction is between them.
    Don't you know, RD? The kid Jerry is always right!
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So you actually think that when Paul preached to the circumcision he preached the "gospel of the uncircumcision" to them instead of the "gospel of the circumcision"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Where would you get such an idiotic idea? You are constantly a false accuser.
    You nailed it. That is his MO on this site, i.e.,

    - he, in deception, sophistry, humanism, on every thread in which he blabs his big, fat mouth, inevitably counters, in condescension, in humanism, everyone, as his "debate ender,"So you actually think that...."(blah blah blah)?!!!!

    -he falsely mischaracterizes, misrepresents, an opponent's argument, and falsely accuses them.


    He's a deceptive punk, with an unteacheable "spirit," not here to learn, teach others, but just tell everyone that he is right.
    Saint John W

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    The case for Jesus as Messiah according to the law and prophets had to be made to all Jews to whom Paul preached. They would have insisted that the case be made before they listened to anything else he said.

    How does that demand Paul would then have to preach to them something other than his received gospel of grace?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Tell me what gospel which you think that Paul preached in the synagogues?
    He preached the gospel of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Do you not know that the Lord gave him a ministry to the Jews as well as one to the Gentiles?
    Yes, I am fully aware of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What other gospel would he preach to the Jews but the one which the Twelve preached to them:

    "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick" (Lk.9:1-2).
    Why did Paul never preach the part about healing everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That is the exact same gospel which Paul speaks of here:

    "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:25).

    I have already shown you that at the time he was preaching to the Jews at Acts 9 he hadn't even received the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles but you cannot even understand this simple thing.
    If Paul was preaching the same gospel as the twelve, why are there so many things missing from his preaching of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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