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Thread: Is believing/faith a work ?

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    TOL Subscriber PneumaPsucheSoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Then in regards to Romans 10:14, would hear mean being persuaded?
    Ultimately, yes. Faith (as a noun) is confident assurance and persuasion. And it’s in reference to the thing believed which is the thing heard.

    How shall they hear (in that context) means there must be a messenger (the Preacher) for there to be a message.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You don't understand how I'm using required and the context to which its said. So you still seem not to understand the point of the Op. Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

    Again, I do understand why you don't want to discuss an apparent contradiction by alleging insufficiency of my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    It has nothing to do with your inquiry sorry.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    I accept your apology.

    However, it is this thread where you said that Salvation is not by works, and, it is this thread where you said believing is a work, and, it is this thread where you said believing is required; therefore, this thread is the place to question what you said.

    So Jesus said repentance and believing are required works.
    You say salvation is without works/believing/faith.
    Good job; well done, again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Again, I do understand why you don't want to discuss an apparent contradiction by alleging insufficiency of my understanding.


    I accept your apology.

    However, it is this thread where you said that Salvation is not by works, and, it is this thread where you said believing is a work, and, it is this thread where you said believing is required; therefore, this thread is the place to question what you said.

    So Jesus said repentance and believing are required works.
    You say salvation is without works/believing/faith.
    Good job; well done, again!
    Again you are failing to understand my point so there's nothing to discuss. It would serve you better to start a thread of your own about requirements. This thread isn't about that.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
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    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Again you are failing to understand my point so there's nothing to discuss. It would serve you better to start a thread of your own about requirements. This thread isn't about that.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

    Ok, I'll go back to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

    See strongs # 2041:


    1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied

      1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

    2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
    Yes, faith is a work, a product of using one's hearing/mental ability. Using one's mind is the work performed in order for one to have the product that is faith.


    an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

    The mind is :

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.
    Believing is not work; believing is a work (per your original assertion) which is the result of accepting knowledge; accepting knowledge is the result of making a choice; making a choice to accept knowledge is the act which causes believing to happen.

    Everything a man believes is founded upon his choice(s) ("process of decision making" as you said) concerning knowledge. Choosing is the work by which belief is formed; belief is the knowledge that one chooses to accept. Believing happens because belief exists; thus, believing is the product of belief.

    Therefore, we agree according to your highlighted statements above.

    Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

    So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

    Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

    But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.


    Summary:
    We agree that faith is a work.
    We agree that believing is a work.

    However:
    Why did you end this post with "But now Salvation is not by works", since that was not your point?

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    blackbird

    Why did you end this post with "But now Salvation is not by works", since that was not your point?
    That should be a reasonable conclusion, for many people believe they are saved because they believed. Thats saying you are saved because of your work. Thats not scriptural
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    blackbird

    That should be a reasonable conclusion, for many people believe they are saved because they believed. Thats saying you are saved because of your work. Thats not scriptural
    I think we agree that the reasonable, scriptural conclusion is that salvation is not by works, and therefore it's not scriptural for a man to say he is saved because of his work and it is scriptural then, that a man is saved by something other than work.

    Is it reasonable to say then, that a man is saved without the work that, in your OP, is believing/faith?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    I think we agree that the reasonable, scriptural conclusion is that salvation is not by works, and therefore it's not scriptural for a man to say he is saved because of his work and it is scriptural then, that a man is saved by something other than work.

    Is it reasonable to say then, that a man is saved without the work that, in your OP, is believing/faith?
    Yes thats reasonable

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
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    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Faith is not a work. It's an attitude. Paul clearly classifies faith as not being a work in Romans 4

    "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works." Rom 4:4-6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcbsr View Post
    Faith is not a work. It's an attitude. Paul clearly classifies faith as not being a work in Romans 4

    "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works." Rom 4:4-6

    Would you explain how one begins to have this "attitude"?

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    Faith is not a mere human attitude, but rather a Divine attribute; gifted to elect sons of God so that they may be justified . . through the Person, name, works and merits of Jesus Christ alone.

    This gift from God, is Godly power (cause) that (effectually) produces belief, obedience, and ultimate salvation in and for all souls for whom it was designated and promised.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcbsr View Post
    Faith is not a work. It's an attitude. Paul clearly classifies faith as not being a work in Romans 4

    "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works." Rom 4:4-6
    Paul never said beliving isn't a work.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Would you explain how one begins to have this "attitude"?
    I once had a conversation with someone that went something like this:

    Me: You cannot believe because you do not have faith. You do not have faith because you will not ask for it. Ask Him and he will give you faith so that you will have the capacity to believe.

    The next day the answer from this person was; "Well, I sincerely prayed to God to give me faith but it didn't work; I still don't believe."

    I said, "It did work. You had it even as you asked. You cannot ask God for something if you are completely convinced of His non-existence. Where did your belief come from that someone might listen to your prayer? That is faith in seed form. You did receive what you asked for. Plant it, water it, give it light, feed it, keep the weeds away and soon it will pop out of the soil for you to see."

    Today that person is a strong Christian.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Paul never said beliving isn't a work.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk




    "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

    Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

    Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
    It's just as clear as it can possibly be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post



    "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

    Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
    Nowhere does that passage say believing isn't a work.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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