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Thread: Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Humans are animals too. You operate on instinct a lot yourself as do we all.
    Animals don't know the difference between right and wrong. We are made in the image of God, we're not animals. Sorry buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Sin only applies to man doesn't it? How does that affect the myriad lifeforms that prey on each other when in a 'perfect world' none of that need take place?

    Oh, and to add, no, man isn't a 'wise steward' overall and causes more suffering to himself and other lifeforms on the planet than anything else.
    So you didn't read what I said, did you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
    Genesis chapter 3 - KJV - Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
    8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
    9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
    12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
    13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
    14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Animals don't know the difference between right and wrong. We are made in the image of God, we're not animals. Sorry buddy.
    By that argument, why are they designed to feel pain and suffering because of 'man's fall'? Don't kid yourself either PJ. A lot of your reactions to any number of things are pure instinct just like the nearest dog.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    So you didn't read what I said, did you?
    Yes, I did. I simply don't find your 'sin affecting everything' to be a plausible or convincing argument. You need to expand on it and then some.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Genesis chapter 3 - KJV - [FONT="]Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the [/FONT][FONT="]Lord[/FONT][FONT="] God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?[/FONT][FONT="]2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?[/FONT]
    [FONT="]10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?[/FONT]
    [FONT="]12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.[/FONT]
    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    Is all that supposed to be taken literally?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    By that argument, why are they designed to feel pain and suffering because of 'man's fall'? Don't kid yourself either PJ. A lot of your reactions to any number of things are pure instinct just like the nearest dog.
    Yes, mankind relied on instinct to kill and eat but the loving of self and selfishness, greed. hunger for power and control, evil intentions and sadistic behavior all comes from satan. The ruler of this world.

    2 Corinthians 4 - KJV - Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
    7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
    8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
    9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
    10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
    11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
    12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
    13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
    14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
    15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
    16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
    17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
    18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Is all that supposed to be taken literally?
    Yes, for me. Some people think it's a story to help us understand evil and good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post

    Oh, and to add, no, man isn't a 'wise steward' overall and causes more suffering to himself and other lifeforms on the planet than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Yes, I did. I simply don't find your 'sin affecting everything' to be a plausible or convincing argument. You need to expand on it and then some.
    What did you just say?

    Like the buffalo hunters taking the pelts and leaving the meat, huh? Greed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Yes, mankind relied on instinct to kill and eat but the loving of self and selfishness, greed. hunger for power and control, evil intentions and sadistic behavior all comes fro satan. The ruler of this world.

    2 Corinthians 4 - KJV - [FONT="]Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;[/FONT][FONT="]2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;[/FONT]
    18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
    What about kindness, a friendly word, support, empathy etc, support during someone's pain and suffering etc? Sure, human's have the capacity for such and aren't reduced to mere instinct for the most part but then that isn't what this thread is about although instinct still plays a significant part in life. What about human casualties because of this "fall"? Children born with cancers, severely disabled and with painful conditions? Those unfortunate to be born in areas with severe malnutrition etc? Why? Once again, why extend this to the whole of nature also? Why is there suffering throughout? That was the plan?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What about kindness, a friendly word, support, empathy etc, support during someone's pain and suffering etc? Sure, human's have the capacity for such and aren't reduced to mere instinct for the most part but then that isn't what this thread is about although instinct still plays a significant part in life. What about human casualties because of this "fall"? Children born with cancers, severely disabled and with painful conditions? Those unfortunate to be born in areas with severe malnutrition etc? Why? Once again, why extend this to the whole of nature also? Why is there suffering throughout? That was the plan?
    The answer was in those scriptures, read them and understand what God is telling us.

    2 Corinthians 4:17-18 KJV - For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What about kindness, a friendly word, support, empathy etc, support during someone's pain and suffering etc? Sure, human's have the capacity for such and aren't reduced to mere instinct for the most part but then that isn't what this thread is about although instinct still plays a significant part in life. What about human casualties because of this "fall"? Children born with cancers, severely disabled and with painful conditions? Those unfortunate to be born in areas with severe malnutrition etc? Why? Once again, why extend this to the whole of nature also? Why is there suffering throughout? That was the plan?
    Those qualities in your first sentence are the fruits of the spirit. Most of us strive to do those things. There are no easy or cut and dry answers to pain, disease, starvation, disasters and just plain evil. But some of the scriptures I shared do explain it to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What did you just say?

    Like the buffalo hunters taking the pelts and leaving the meat, huh? Greed.
    Well, just what you quoted me as saying.

    Humans kill for any number of reasons and sometimes disguise it as "sport". Not exactly the point of this thread as why should animals suffer and die because of some shortcoming of 'man'? Why not just limit the suffering to man alone if we're the only ones culpable and can be judged accordingly?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Those qualities in your first sentence are the fruits of the spirit. Most of us strive to do those things. There are no easy or cut and dry answers to pain, disease, starvation, disasters and just plain evil. But some of the scriptures I shared do explain it to us.
    Then tell me what you think Patrick? Is there a loving God out there who designed this world with full knowledge that humanity would screw up and had a back up plan where all of creation suffered for the inevitable backlash for such failure?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    The answer was in those scriptures, read them and understand what God is telling us.

    2 Corinthians 4:17-18 KJV - [FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]For our light affliction, which is but for a moment[/FONT][FONT="], worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 [/FONT][FONT="]While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: [/FONT][FONT="]for the things which are seen are temporal[/FONT]; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
    Tell that to someone grieving or dying from lack of food. Put things in perspective PJ, or at least try to.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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