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Thread: Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

  1. #91
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Not much one for making a rational argument, are you?
    Great grammar going on there Stipe. In turn, you're hardly one to criticize on the score and if you think Calvinism is the predominant belief in Christianity then you're the one in need of a reality check.



    What's weird about that? Pain is a good thing.
    Tell that to someone with chronic arthritis or any debilitating condition etc. You don't think it's good that all pain/suffering will end?



    Arthur's brain.
    There's no variety about you at all is there? So predictable and boring...

    Well this is fun isn't it?


  2. #92
    Over 5000 post club quip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I guess that one who denies everlasting torment in Hell for all dead unbelievers—lives that were full of "indiscretions"—would also want to find more "unfair" things to complain about.

    AMR
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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Great grammar going on there Stipe.


    You're hardly one to criticize on the score.
    Another non sequitur?

    The key is to make a case. You created this thread; did you have anything other than emotionalism to offer?

    If you think Calvinism is the predominant belief in Christianity then you're the one in need of a reality check.


    Counting again? Of what consequence is the popularity of an idea?

    Tell that to someone with chronic arthritis or any debilitating condition etc. You don't think it's good that all pain/suffering will end?
    Debilitating conditions are bad. Pain — although it is difficult to deal with at times — is good.

    Suffering will end, but I bet if you get too close to a flame in heaven, it will still hurt. It's good that pain kicks in when your flesh gets too hot.

    There's no variety about you at all is there? So predictable and boring.yawn:


    Arthur's brain.

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  5. #94
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Many people deny insidious and repugnant doctrines, Calvinism being one of them. If you weren't so wrapped up in intellectualism you might rediscover and value the attributes of compassion, understanding, empathy instead of being so coldly detached from other people's "deserved" suffering. There is no love in your doctrine and it paints a deity described as such as one that no sadist on the planet could come close to emulating. That's not a 'complaint' but an observation.
    If Calvinism were alone in its view of God visiting His judgement eternally upon the unbeliever, you may even have a point. As it stands, we are not alone, nor do you have the point you hoped to make...other than to reach for the nearest mud to sling in hopes of detracting from your basic error denying the existence of Hell in the first place. One inevitable day, you will fall into the hands of the living God, and, unless you have come to your senses beforehand, you will find it quite a terrible thing.

    Not a few like to ask God, "Why?". As we have seen from Scripture, the answer usually comes from Him in the form of "Who". Job immediately comes to mind.

    If you think me coldly detached on this matter, you have not read me well, or simply dismiss anything a mean, old, Calvinist has to say. You mistake careful explanations as intellectualism, instead preferring weighty matters be reduced to sound bites and bumper stickers. Most modern English Bible translations contain over 700,000 words. Hard sayings among them, too. I have no truck with those that think these words should be reduced to incantations, slogans, or snippets, just because one is unwilling to expend the effort to dig deeper. Rather, it is because I genuinely cherish these words that I spend the time it takes to explain or opine about their wondrous content to others that genuinely are interested. There is life in them, eternal life. There is death, eternal death, too. Plucking the brand from the fire is always one of my underlying motivations in whatever I take the time to write about at length.

    Not one of us deserves mercy. If it were so, then mercy is reduced to justice, which is what all truly deserve and will ultimately receive.

    AMR
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  7. #95
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    If Calvinism were alone in its view of God visiting His judgement eternally upon the unbeliever, you may even have a point. As it stands, we are not alone, nor do you have the point you hoped to make...other than to reach for the nearest mud to sling in hopes of detracting from your basic error denying the existence of Hell in the first place. One inevitable day, you will fall into the hands of the living God, and, unless you have come to your senses beforehand, you will find it quite a terrible thing.
    Which "hell" would that be AMR? What version, let alone what the 'lake of fire' actually is when 'hades' is cast into it along with "death"? If there's a monstrous deity out there that set out things whereby life would suffer interminably throughout eternity then hey, I don't expect such to show mercy regardless if I 'tow the line' or not. You, on the other hand (along with others of similar ilk) have scant regard for anybody's pain and torment as long as it isn't yours. You call my position 'slinging mud' or the like. No. it's just forthright honesty. Your belief system is repugnant and your callous disregard for anyone who isn't part of your "saved" group amid your pontificating intellectualism is sickening.



    Not a few like to ask God, "Why?". As we have seen from Scripture, the answer usually comes from Him in the form of "Who". Job immediately comes to mind.

    If you think me coldly detached on this matter, you have not read me well, or simply dismiss anything a mean, old, Calvinist has to say. You mistake careful explanations as intellectualism, instead preferring weighty matters be reduced to sound bites and bumper stickers. Most modern English Bible translations contain over 700,000 words. Hard sayings among them, too. I have no truck with those that think these words should be reduced to incantations, slogans, or snippets, just because one is unwilling to expend the effort to dig deeper. Rather, it is because I genuinely cherish these words that I spend the time it takes to explain or opine about their wondrous content to others that genuinely are interested. There is life in them, eternal life. There is death, eternal death, too. Plucking the brand from the fire is always one of my underlying motivations in whatever I take the time to write about at length.

    Not one of us deserves mercy. If it were so, then mercy is reduced to justice, which is what all truly deserve and will ultimately receive.

    AMR
    Yes, I consider you coldly detached on the matter as you talk about torments and sufferings as if they're part of some intellectual exercise that you, yourself will obviously be spared from and blandly recite the pain of others as if from a textbook. You are far from the only one on here to do that to be fair but that only underlines how insidious certain religious beliefs and doctrines can rob people of simple, basic compassion and understanding. Ultimately love.
    Last edited by Arthur Brain; February 15th, 2018 at 09:59 PM.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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  9. #96
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post


    Another non sequitur?

    The key is to make a case. You created this thread; did you have anything other than emotionalism to offer?



    Counting again? Of what consequence is the popularity of an idea?

    Debilitating conditions are bad. Pain — although it is difficult to deal with at times — is good.

    Suffering will end, but I bet if you get too close to a flame in heaven, it will still hurt. It's good that pain kicks in when your flesh gets too hot.





    Arthur's brain.
    Well, I sure won't be asking anyone to repent of raping their own siblings Stipe, without a singular good cause. You'll recall the context of this, right, in regards to earlier? Every little word etc?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  10. #97
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    As I say: It's all emotionalism.

    Bye bye, retard.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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  11. #98
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    As I say: It's all emotionalism.

    Bye bye, retard.
    Well, no, not that I'd expect you to differentiate between 'emotionalism' and things like common understanding, empathy etc anyway, not with your track record. If you're leaving then no great loss although there's no need to talk to yourself on the way out dude...
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, no, not that I'd expect you to differentiate between 'emotionalism' and things like common understanding, empathy etc anyway, not with your track record. If you're leaving then no great loss although there's no need to talk to yourself on the way out dude...
    You’re on the road to antisemitism


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  13. #100
    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well, no, not that I'd expect you to differentiate between 'emotionalism' and things like common understanding, empathy etc anyway, not with your track record. If you're leaving then no great loss although there's no need to talk to yourself on the way out dude...
    From The Berean - Fair Use - Arthur, if you hover over a Bible verse it will pop up a window containing the scripture. I may not agree with every single thing this site teaches but I think it can help you understand more.
    Carnal Mind
    Carnal Nature
    Carnally Minded
    Human Nature
    Satan's Influence
    Satan's Spirit
    Spirit in Man
    Spirit of this World






    Genesis 1:31 KJV - Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
    New King James Version Change your email Bible version

    God Himself said that man was very good. This is an expression of pleasure; He was pleased with what He had accomplished. If we were very good when He created us, then that must include the nature He created us with.
    Does God take pleasure in a nature that is enmity against Him Romans 8:7 KJV - ? Not at all, which indicates very strongly that, as He created us and as we are born, we do not have the nature that we later come to have that is enmity against Him. Hateful, human nature is something that develops because God put a spirit in us that other spirits, either God Himself or the spirit of this world, are able to communicate with 1 Corinthians 2:10-12 KJV -
    If the spirit that He is talking about in Genesis 1:31 KJV - was very good, then why has human history been a recording of violence, disease, anguish of spirit? Why is there so much bitterness, anger, prejudice, resentment, doubt, self-pity, vanity, envy, greed, jealousy, pride, and lust? Nowhere in God's Word are these called good or even acceptable.
    Those traits do not come from God. He did not create us that way. God is love. He is kind, generous, good,merciful. We can honestly conclude that they do not come from man either, as he was created by God, because God judged man to be "very good." Yet, mankind expresses these very attributes.
    Again, would something God pronounced "very good" produce what we see? We can conclude that these traits must have come from the spirit of this world, from Satan, who is invisible, soundless, but is able to communicate with our spirits.
    — John W. Ritenbaugh
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  14. #101
    Old Timer ttruscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Sin only applies to man doesn't it?

    Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle / cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
    implies that the other animals were cunning also albeit less so. Even the serpent's curse carries this implication: 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,“Cursed are you ABOVE all livestock and all wild animals! implying they got cursed less.

    Also it is written that the flood was a judgement on the violence and evil of man,
    Gen 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. yet Gen 6:7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” How can the animals and birds be judged along with mankind unless as Gen 3:1 implied, they are sinful also?
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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