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Thread: Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Did God Design All Of Creation To Suffer As A Result Of The 'Fall'?

    So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
    Shalom.

    Today is Shlishli, 11-28. It is Yom, Day. These things are true until sundown. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington.

    Do you believe that death is the result of sin, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and is this (just) death for man, Adam and Eve, mankind?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, Adam and Eve transgress by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and as a result, not only do all human descendants get 'infected' by sin but the whole of nature gets struck with suffering, disease and death as well?
    Sin entered the world.

    Do you think that wouldn't have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned?

    I submit it's a natural consequence of giving man the ability to choose evil over good.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Sin entered the world.

    Do you think that wouldn't have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned?

    I submit it's a natural consequence of giving man the ability to choose evil over good.
    I think it was inevitable that anyone would fail to be perfect no matter what their names. You aren't perfect, I'm not and neither is anyone else, right? The point is, why does the whole of creation have to suffer because of this supposed 'fall' as some seem to suggest?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Today is Shlishli, 11-28. It is Yom, Day. These things are true until sundown. I am writing from Tacoma, Washington.

    Do you believe that death is the result of sin, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and is this (just) death for man, Adam and Eve, mankind?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    I don't believe in anything so literal.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I don't believe in anything so literal.
    Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth (the whole world, the entire world) and everything in it?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth (the whole world, the entire world) and everything in it?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    For the purposes here, it really doesn't matter what I believe. I'd sooner not sidetrack the thread this early and rather get opinions as regards the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    For the purposes here, it really doesn't matter what I believe. I'd sooner not sidetrack the thread this early and rather get opinions as regards the OP.
    I understand. But if man was not punished with death, as God promised, for disobeying God then how would it even be possible for all of creation to suffer as the result of man's sin? I suppose we could theorize what the world would look like if man had not sinned. The point is that some people believe that God foreknew or predestined man to fall. In regard to the Garden of Eden there are other views than these or that God designed all of creation to suffer as a result of the fall, from the beginning, or as a result of or in the fall. The question is are we going to believe what the Bible says? And, we should. If you do not believe the Bible you will out-theorize God's Word from the beginning. Begin with the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The rest of your understanding will follow. Animals, plants, what do you believe is suffering? Do you believe in pain? Did Adam and Eve die as a result of their sin? What did it mean for death to be the result of their sin, either for themselves, all mankind, or all of creation?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    I think it was inevitable that anyone would fail to be perfect no matter what their names. You aren't perfect, I'm not and neither is anyone else, right? The point is, why does the whole of creation have to suffer because of this supposed 'fall' as some seem to suggest?
    Because sin affects everything. The earth is exploited by greed and lust. Greedy men kill all the buffalo for their hides, for example. Are we wise stewards?

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I understand. But if man was not punished with death, as God promised, for disobeying God then how would it even be possible for all of creation to suffer as the result of man's sin? I suppose we could theorize what the world would look like if man had not sinned. The point is that some people believe that God foreknew or predestined man to fall. In regard to the Garden of Eden there are other views than these or that God designed all of creation to suffer as a result of the fall, from the beginning, or as a result of or in the fall. The question is are we going to believe what the Bible says? And, we should. If you do not believe the Bible you will out-theorize God's Word from the beginning. Begin with the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The rest of your understanding will follow. Animals, plants, what do you believe is suffering? Do you believe in pain? Did Adam and Eve die as a result of their sin? What did it mean for death to be the result of their sin, either for themselves, all mankind, or all of creation?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    Um, in all seriousness, how could an omnipotent God not foresee fallibility in a creation such as man? Did Adam have the capability to feel pain or suffering before he ate 'the apple'?

    Do I "believe" in pain, or suffering? Are you for real?

    If you have the 'standard' capacity for feeling pain then you'll have experienced it enough times, physically at the very least.
    Last edited by Arthur Brain; February 13th, 2018 at 07:38 PM.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Because sin affects everything. The earth is exploited by greed and lust. Greedy men kill all the buffalo for their hides, for example. Are we wise stewards?
    Sin only applies to man doesn't it? How does that affect the myriad lifeforms that prey on each other when in a 'perfect world' none of that need take place?

    Oh, and to add, no, man isn't a 'wise steward' overall and causes more suffering to himself and other lifeforms on the planet than anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Um, in all seriousness, how could an omnipotent God not foresee fallibility in a creation such as man? Did Adam have the capability to feel pain or suffering before he eat 'the apple'?

    Do I "believe" in pain, or suffering? Are you for real?

    If you have the 'standard' capacity for feeling pain then you'll have experienced it enough times, physically at the very least.
    Shalom.

    Correct.

    Because pain is a good thing if you experience it. It is an indicator that something is wrong. Tactile senses or the tactile sense is important. I do not know if anything was wrong before the sin of Adam and Eve and the fall. Certainly Adam (and Eve) experienced life as God had created it for them to be experienced. The question now is (oh, I don't know that it was an apple) about God foreseeing (His ability to do so, rather than strict determinism for example) and man's free will. Certainly man has a will, but is it free or bound? Since a free will choice exists what does that say for some people choosing to sin or do evil? Is free will simply a voluntary choice? What is all involved in doing the right thing? That God has instructed you and allowed you to do so to His glory. So we should not choose to do otherwise. Did God give man a choice or did man choose to go against God's will and instruction?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Sin only applies to man doesn't it? How does that affect the myriad lifeforms that prey on each other when in a 'perfect world' none of that need take place?

    Oh, and to add, no, man isn't a 'wise steward' overall and causes more suffering to himself and other lifeforms on the planet than anything else.
    Animals operate on instinct.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Correct.

    Because pain is a good thing if you experience it. It is an indicator that something is wrong. Tactile senses or the tactile sense is important. I do not know if anything was wrong before the sin of Adam and Eve and the fall. Certainly Adam (and Eve) experienced life as God had created it for them to be experienced. The question now is (oh, I don't know that it was an apple) about God foreseeing (His ability to do so, rather than strict determinism for example) and man's free will. Certainly man has a will, but is it free or bound? Since a free will choice exists what does that say for some people choosing to sin or do evil? Is free will simply a voluntary choice? What is all involved in doing the right thing? That God has instructed you and allowed you to do so to His glory. So we should not choose to do otherwise. Did God give man a choice or did man choose to go against God's will and instruction?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    Pain is only a 'good' thing when it can be controlled and not so acute as to be excruciating where any otherwise logical process is pretty much rendered redundant because of the suffering. To put it another way, if you're in agony what use is the pain to you if you can do nothing about it and/or hindered because of it?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Animals operate on instinct.
    Humans are animals too. You operate on instinct a lot yourself as do we all.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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