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Thread: Why Evolution is real science - let's settle this "debate"!

  1. #31
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsMyUserName View Post
    This is the position of rejecting the proposition as stated in the initial post.
    Why should biological evolution be rejected
    • Religious conviction
    • The science is riddled with errors and everyone's a fraud
    That list begins and ends with "evidence."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsMyUserName View Post
    Intro

    I have created this thread for the single purpose of settling the long-running discussions about the veracity of evolution in the scientific sense (yeah, very ambitious, I know).

    I would like to keep this thread as concise as possible by providing a summary for all the arguments from both sides that I will be keeping up-to-date in the first few posts.


    IMPORTANT:
    The purpose here is solely to talk about science - not about faith, philosophy, theology or ethics or anything else unrelated.


    Any feedback is appreciated and I'll try to adjust accordingly.




    Proposition

    BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION is an established scientific fact. It explains every observation concerning biodiversity on our planet and is not contradicted by anything in the natural world.

    Acceptance of evolution and belief in God are NOT mutually exclusive!




    Definitions

    Evolution:
    Gradual change over time

    Biological evolution:
    Evolution of populations of living organisms.
    Commonly known as: "descent with modifications"
    Formally known as: "changing of allele frequencies across generations"

    Scientific method:
    The process of systematic investigation of the properties and behaviour of any system by empirical means and inductive inference, which improves its own conclusions by repeated validation of predictions and deductive hypotheses.
    a.k.a "methodological naturalism"
    Formally: Ask a question --> design experiment/observation --> analyse data and draw tentative conclusion --> critically evaluate the conclusion by asking deeper questions and attempting to falsify the conclusion

    Scientific theory:
    A comprehensive body of knowledge corresponding to the current consensus about a particular scientific subject. A theory is comprised of all relevant facts, laws and explanations. A scientific theory is the highest degree of confidence available for any field of study.




    Rules

    • Be polite!
    • Stay on point
    • Address every argument and explain your position
    • Don't assume that others know what you mean - provide references
    • Keep an open mind
    • Enjoy!





    VERY IMPORTANT:
    In order to guarantee a fair discussion and that everyone is on the same page here, I'd like to ask all of you to be patient and first let's establish a consensus regarding the format that I have proposed before we delve into the actual conversation.
    So please, don't start arguing just yet, I'll announce in due course when the preparations are complete. Right now, I'd like to ask for feedback on what you think about this idea and the current setup.


    I propose the following order:

    STEP 1: Agree on terms

    STEP 2: Agree on initial positions

    STEP 3: fight!
    Evolution( change over time) is most definitely observable and is not spoken against in the bible.

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  4. #33
    Over 4000 post club JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Evolution( change over time) is most definitely observable and is not spoken against in the bible.

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    V
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    This thread / topic uses the fallacy of equivocation. Everyone agrees populations change. (Observational). Not everyone agrees with Darwinian beliefs about descent /common ancestry. (Non-Observational belief about the past)


    That is true. However the belief that 'monkeys' evolved into humans contradicts God's Word.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Darwin was wrong about many things, and the thread is not about him (Or his beliefs).


    The thread titled 'Why Evolution is real science...' suggests either a) the 'author' does not know what real science is... or b) is equivocating on terminogy. (Real science is not your beliefs about the past, nor mine)

    God's Word tells us He formed man from the dust, and woman from mans rib. (That is not science). You seem to believe 'fish' evolved into philosophers. (That is not science).

    Funny (sort of) that you abject to clarifying terminology before we start the discussion. Also funny (sort of) that you and the thread author only want to discuss "Why Evolution is real science" but don't want to discuss why 'evolution is NOT Real science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    In the 'religion' section?




    We haven't talked before. My problem with a thread 'without' faith or theology: Colossians 1:17 There is not 'compartmentalized' truth. All truth is God's truth.

    Let's look at "Evolution" and then Colossians 1:17 for contrast.

    First, definition of Evolution. EVERY definition of Evolution And this is important: INCLUDING YOUR discussion parameters ( ), removes God from creation. How? Because it is ALL against Colossians 1:17. "Without Him NOTHING exists that exists." That means Evolution is wrong. NO creation just 'does it.' It is EITHER God-did-it OR Evolution-did-it. Every atheist and/or evolutionist I've ever read or talked to has always maintained they have never said "evolution-did-it." Not true. They are saying that every life 'does-it' (evolves).

    Second, Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 and Colossians 1:16-20. "...by Him, all things consist..." AND 'without Him, NOTHING exists that exists.'

    In a nutshell, evolution not only leaves God out, as you've done, it also goes against God's revelation of Himself. No Christian anywhere who names the name of Christ, can EVER eschew Colossians 1:16-20. Not even for their biology lab. If so? They are accepting some form of the mark of the beast AND denying Christ. This thread? As gently as I know how to say: Is embracing that mark IN the religion section, by eschewing God. Read Colossians 1 a few times. "All things are made FOR Him! "IF" we eschew God from our discussions about all things made FOR God, we are pushing to divorce our conversation FROM Him, the very things made FOR Him! I don't want to be THAT guy!!

    On a good note, even you refuse, in a sense, to accept that mark. There is no discussion of creation without God. Romans 1:18-20

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    V
    Change over time in no way refutes creation.

    Acknowledging such in no way refutes the Way, or that everything was formed by GOD.

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    Over 5000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Change over time in no way refutes creation.

    Acknowledging such in no way refutes the Way, or that everything was formed by GOD.
    My children are a slight change from me... that in no way refutes God's word. However if you believe that change can result into monkey's... or visa versa... then that does contradict God's word

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    My children are a slight change from me... that in no way refutes God's word. However if you believe that change can result into monkey's... or visa versa... then that does contradict God's word
    Yeah; I definitely didn't mean that. Change over time is what I mean; a very loose definition of evolution.

    Change over time is quite scriptural actually; just not in the material sense.

    GOD being all powerful and all knowing would have technically known and done exactly what was needed to put everything into motion for us to have literally evolved from red dirt, but that is not my opinion or argument; just a deduction.

    peace

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Sounds like you have a point to make, but can't finish a coherent argument.
    Given that it was a question with a rather obvious pointed aspect to it then you should learn the difference between a question and an argument.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  11. #38
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post


    I wouldn't word it like Brain did, but it's not overtly incorrect. However, like a typical Darwinist, he forgot the therefore.

    He went on a rant and it looks like he's relying on an unspoken narrative to create the illusion of a point.

    He didn't make a point, so there's nothing to debate. It's just a disconnected opinion.
    You have a strange idea of what constitutes a "rant". What JR seemed to be suggesting is that God's back up plan involves all of creation suffering in the event of the fall of man. I'll wait and see if he addresses/clarifies his position on it.
    Last edited by Arthur Brain; February 13th, 2018 at 12:32 PM.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Over 4000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    A perfect creation has been subjected to entropy. EX... Most bacteria are beneficial and necessary for life. Mutations sometimes corrupt information.
    So wait.....are you actually agreeing that natural processes such as mutations can generate very complex biochemical pathways, biological structures, and life strategies?
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Sure, but to do what they are doing now? I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't think their purpose would have been to do what they do. Scriptural examples: The wolf lying down with the lamb Isaiah 11:6 I can't think of a benefit of a mosquito biting, but males are nectar drinkers. I'd think there might have been a beneficial purpose. The suggestion is that we aren't evolving, but devolved yet sustained by harsher means as necessary suggested from Romans 8:20 imho. Again, thanks for asking.

    See ▲ 6 days ▲ just above me as well.
    So same question....are you in agreement then that natural processes are fully capable of generating very complex biochemical pathways, biological structures, and life strategies?
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
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    In a nutshell, evolution not only leaves God out,
    As does plumbing. The only difference is that you're not scared of plumbing.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsMyUserName View Post
    Definitions

    Evolution:
    Gradual change over time
    The evolution debate is about whether plant, fish, birds, and mammals all have a common ancestor but became so different from each other due to accumulated changes over time.

    Is life defying entropy by creating more and more complexity in every generation due to random mutations?
    Or is every generation experiencing a loss of genetic information due to entropy in the form of mutations?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Over 4000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The evolution debate is about whether plant, fish, birds, and mammals all have a common ancestor but became so different from each other due to accumulated changes over time.
    More accurately, this "debate" only exists with fundamentalist Christians.

    Is life defying entropy by creating more and more complexity in every generation due to random mutations?
    Here's a tip.....localized decreases in entropy are not only common, but pretty much necessary. You should understand thermodynamics before trying to cite it in an argument.

    Or is every generation experiencing a loss of genetic information due to entropy in the form of mutations?
    Impossible to say, since creationists have not come up with a means to measure "genetic information".
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

  20. #44
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    So wait.....are you actually agreeing that natural processes such as mutations can generate very complex biochemical pathways, biological structures, and life strategies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    So same question....are you in agreement then that natural processes are fully capable of generating very complex biochemical pathways, biological structures, and life strategies?
    Close, although I'm not sure 'more' complex. DNA is already complex. I'd liken this to a biological A-I on the DNA scale? Realize, my science is good but not extensive so my concern is always the overall of such discussion.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Close, although I'm not sure 'more' complex.
    Why not?

    DNA is already complex. I'd liken this to a biological A-I on the DNA scale? Realize, my science is good but not extensive so my concern is always the overall of such discussion.
    Understood.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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