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Thread: Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Not scripture, but from Christians who attest that the earth is a sphere. Answers also has scripture articles.

    Reinventing the wheel here on TOL isn't as good, imho, as reading articles by men and women who have the best means to test theories.

    Being a pilot also proves a global earth (and there are other reasons I believe both scripturally and by observation, the earth is a globe), but I'm not really into talking someone out of their beliefs if it matters this much to them. I am interested in the truth and giving information that anyone can look up. I'm also interested in giving observations that prove or uphold a global earth (Here is another that convinced me Coriolis Effect).

    Here is a good overall basic of what it means to be on a ball (sphere). If what he is saying is true (and it is) you or anybody CAN test whether what he is saying is true and discover for yourself, on your own terms, whether the earth is a globe or a disk.
    That is amazing in the one video at the equator, (here), how just a couple of feet makes the difference in the reversing of the coriolis effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    That is amazing in the one video at the equator, , how just a couple of feet makes the difference in the reversing of the coriolis effect.
    No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

    This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name
    Last edited by patrick jane; February 7th, 2018 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    The dilemma I'm finding in the debate over an enclosed earth and cosmos is that people think it's not possible. If you think it's impossible then you won't hear what the Bible and therefore, I am saying. Nothing is impossible for God. His ways are past finding out.

    I'm crazy, I don't know math, I'M the one ignoring "facts" and "nasa data" and it's not possible. If you can get past all that, then consider that it is possible. Just like the Bible says. If it's not possible, why waste your time? This subject does not change my faith or doctrine. Whether it is or isn't a flying spinning ball or an enclosed earth and firmament makes no difference in how I live my life. Like many people, I find the subject fascinating with the Biblical support of an enclosed earth and firmament. Make up your own mind, decide for yourself.


    Luke 1:37 KJV - For with God nothing shall be impossible.


    Genesis 18:14 KJV - Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    Romans 11:34-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    Hebrews 1:10 KJV - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


    Hebrews 11:3 KJV - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

    This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name
    Okay, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Okay, sorry.
    That's ok, just read you book of enoch, and all the other non-canonical books you can memorize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    In the 1547 (I think) Matthews Bible it says flatt, two t's. I posted a picture of the text in that Bible where it says flat. It could be an interpreting error in one Bible and many of those verses of the 200 could be taken out of context. Flat Earthers don't contend that everything has to be "straight".
    Good find Patrick, and I say that because it reveals how translators will often, yes often, allow their own paradigm-mindsets to slip into the translation. The passage is clearly not intending to teach anything about whether or not the earth is flat: but there it is in that old translation, straight from the mind of the translator(s), even though it is clear from the context that a flat earth has nothing to do with what the passage is speaking about. Moreover the text has the word panei, which is "face", and is used in a very great and wide variety of contexts, and in this sense means the same as how it is used in Gen1:2, "the face of the waters", and simply means surface without judging whether said surface is curved or absolutely flat and level. The 2Sam11:11 passage literally says, "and the servants of my lord are encamped upon the face of the field", and that clearly just means upon or across the surface of a field. Gen1:2, "and Ruach Elohim brooded upon the panei-face of the waters", that is to say, upon or over the surface of the waters.

    However, thank goodness the KJV has been redacted, (lol), and it indeed has been redacted/revised many times since the first edition. For no doubt, if such a reading as that had been allowed to stand until now, every flat-earther would be quoting that text and screaming, "God says the earth is flat! and you simply do not believe Him or His Word!" But if this was wrong, and they realized it and corrected it: how many other things have gone unnoticed and uncorrected? All English translations are simply that: translations of men and man, translations from the original languages into English, (or any other language), and yet it is truly not even possible to render either Hebrew or Greek as if word for word into any other language including English. It simply cannot be done unless you want a Bible that is about seven times larger when all possible meanings of words, statements, and passages are taken into account. Even in the Gospel accounts, when the Master speaks, there are likely seven meanings or branches of thought to every parable, (like vine-branches on a vine).

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    It's amazing how many things science explains with gravity and other magical "forces".
    Gravity is the most parsimonious explanation for the phenomenon we see. You could suppose that "downward fairies" grab things and pull them toward the center of the earth with a force proportional to their mass, but it requires a huge number of auxillary assumptions.

    Such a strong force and yet so weak.
    Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Such a strong force and yet so weak.
    Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.
    2 points:
    1) I 'linked' to scripture presentations
    2) Evidence that 'supports' the biblical data, and vise versa, I believe, go hand in hand. Because your thread IS about the physical world, we can and should discuss what God discusses concerning His scriptures. Psalm 19:1 Romans 1:20 Job 26:7

    It is my opinion, rather than isolating scripture 'from' other revelation, that it always should be couched in all revelation and observation. I've contested and still contest: A search for truth makes theology and science, in its truest sense, a pursuit of knowing truth and knowing God.

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name
    Again, a survey of the earth IS given by Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19:1 A 'desire' for a separation? I believe both unbiblical AND artificial. Truth will out, no matter the source because that source is always God. "As" I'd discuss what God says 'is clearly seen that every man is without excuse' is by observing what God has created. If I participate further, I cannot separate God's truths from one another. Read Job 26:7

    Btw, did you read the first article? He said some brilliant playful college students, started one of your flat-earth movements, tongue-in-cheek. There was no seriousness to it other than a platform for debate and learning debate, and a certain entertainment value being appointed to the flat-earth side. The other flat-earth movement? Serious, but as far as I can tell, scripturally and observationally (again Job 26:7, Psalm 19:1, and Romans 1:20ff), God has conveyed that the earth is an orb simply by our clear observations. We gather most ideas of the shape of the earth, from scriptures, by inference. Nothing in it says the earth is flat although I do believe, such as Job 26, that 'suspended upon nothing' synchronizes with what we know of our orbit and rotation. I do believe thus, that any mention of seasons and specifics of days, always supports an orbiting globe. "Foundation" nor "pedestal" nor 'pillars' support either flat or globe. Your globe in your house, for instance, cannot be suspended without a foundation or pedestal. None of it can be used to support the one idea that will not immediately support the other idea. Because of that? I don't believe you'll be able to satisfy the prerequisite of your thread: No scripture can be used or misused to support one that will not also immediately support the other, imho. I'll leave you to your thread. I've not other scriptures to present at this time other than ones that tell us to pay attention to other ways God speaks to us. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

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    Anyone come up with a feasible flat Earth explanation for a Foucault pendulum?

    Anyone?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    That's ok, just read you book of enoch, and all the other non-canonical books you can memorize.
    If Jude says Enoch prophesied and then quotes from 1Enoch, and if many fragments of 1Enoch have been uncovered from Qumran dating from about 50BCE to 200BCE, which was well before Jude was written: then 1Enoch is entirely worthy of my study. In other words, if it was good enough for Jude, it is critical to me: and what a blessing too, for I have found things in the Torah, (and not just Gen6), and many things in the Prophet Isaiah, and even things in the testimony of the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, things which all speak of statements made in 1Enoch. Elohim is Good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Gravity is the most parsimonious explanation for the phenomenon we see. You could suppose that "downward fairies" grab things and pull them toward the center of the earth with a force proportional to their mass, but it requires a huge number of auxillary assumptions.



    Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.
    I realize that you're the biggest troll in TOL history but please read some recent posts and the OP, which I'm going to edit after further thought and the hodge podge of flat earth topics in other threads that can be used for scientific rebuttals, vast planetary knowledge and nasa data. I will follow the thread topic no matter what. So for instance, if you can show scriptures mentioning gravity or any scripture that mentions gravity, feel free to post them. I'm not talking something falling in the Bible etc. for trolling purposes.

    I've started plenty of Trump threads for you and you have more than me possibly. You can also start your own thread to put your big brain on display. I know it's tempting to troll me since we disagree on so much and I regularly embarrass you whenever I do decide to reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    If Jude says Enoch prophesied and then quotes from 1Enoch, and if many fragments of 1Enoch have been uncovered from Qumran dating from about 50BCE to 200BCE, which was well before Jude was written: then 1Enoch is entirely worthy of my study. In other words, if it was good enough for Jude, it is critical to me: and what a blessing too, for I have found things in the Torah, (and not just Gen6), and many things in the Prophet Isaiah, and even things in the testimony of the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, things which all speak of statements made in 1Enoch. Elohim is Good.
    Nope, not canonized. Keep your non-canonical stuff to yourself, or start a new thread. Don't worry, I'm going to edit the OP to clarify or I may close this one and start a new one so everybody's on the same page. Jude is a poor example, btw. The book of enoch may be "worthy of reading" but I wouldn't go so far as to "study" it. Whatever it says about Enoch in the Holy Bible is worthy of study and feel free to post it here. I think I'm being clear about this thread and if I have to I'll tell everyone individually. It's funny that a few of you are so good at interpreting God's word but can't seem to get what I'm asking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Anyone come up with a feasible flat Earth explanation for a Foucault pendulum?

    Anyone?
    One more and reported, but I'll give you time to read some recent posts, so you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Originally Posted by Tambora
    Then a flat earth is not outside of GOD's power.

    The sun and moon stop.
    It doesn't say anything else in the universe stopped.
    I'm not so sure any scientist would say that the earth kept moving along as normal while that was happening with no repercussions.

    The sun stopped.
    If the earth was a spinning ball, then stopping the sun would have made the day shorter not longer.
    But if the earth was fixed and flat (ya know, like scripture describes it), the story fits like a glove and the day would indeed be longer in that area.
    I said this in Dave's flat earth thread but it bears repeating, that if the sun and moon stopped then the earth had to stop. In fact, since we're told that the whole "universe" is expanding since the "Bang" at millions of miles per hour then God either stopped the whole cosmos or only the sun and moon. Scripture doesn't tell us He stopped the earth or anything else in the firmament.
    The long yom of Joshua points to Golgotha: the sun is at his right hand setting in the shades of the west. The moon is at his left hand rising in the east. The "Book of the Upright" is not some other book called Jasher or Yasher, no, it is the Torah. The companion passage is written specifically for Joshua: Moses was not able to hold up his hands until the going down of the sun, and thus, Ahron and Hur stayed his hands until the going down of the sun, (and Moses held up the rod of Elohim, which was probably five cubits, and made in the sign of the waw or vav, a stake). Joshua was the only one who, by the Hand of Elohim, ever held up his hands in the sign of the waw until the children of Israel defeated their enemies at the going down of the sun, that is, until Golgotha. But Joshua only held up his hands in the sign of the stake for about the space of one yom: Messiah held up his hands in the sign of the waw, the stake, for the full six yamim of the new creation, (Gen1).

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