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Thread: Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    A few things: 2 Samuel 11:11 says nothing about a "flat earth."

    The logic of these points proves itself false. Hills, mountains, valleys, even rivers prove that not all paths are "straight." Also, not all rivers are "straight."
    In the 1547 (I think) Matthews Bible it says flatt, two t's. I posted a picture of the text in that Bible where it says flat. It could be an interpreting error in one Bible and many of those verses of the 200 could be taken out of context. Flat Earthers don't contend that everything has to be "straight".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Then a flat earth is not outside of GOD's power.
    I would agree.

    The sun and moon stop.
    It doesn't say anything else in the universe stopped.
    I'm not so sure any scientist would say that the earth kept moving along as normal while that was happening with no repercussions.

    The sun stopped.
    If the earth was a spinning ball, then stopping the sun would have made the day shorter not longer.
    But if the earth was fixed and flat (ya know, like scripture describes it), the story fits like a glove and the day would indeed be longer in that area.
    You are viewing this from a modern perspective, not that present in Hellenistic or pre-Hellenistic persons/authors.

    Your argument here also fails, logically. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You agree with this statement, correct? So, just because something is not explicitly stated in Scripture, does not make it so. Scripture never mentions the Americas, yet, surely you accept that they exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    First of all it wouldn't be the whole countries, but a select few that control the data.
    As for "why", that's not hard to imagine --------


    prestige, and status.
    How would promotion of a spherical earth lead to an increase in money?

    You don't have to answer this, due to it not being the intent of Sir Patrick the Great to keep this thread Scripture-based. And, I also know that there is no way that you have an actual answer that isn't a part of a circular explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I can do ya one better so ya don't have to accept my interpretation.
    This here is what language experts on the Hebrew language (who are NOT flat earth proponents) say it would look like if the language is taken as literal.
    So it is not in question that scripture describes it this way; but whether to take it as literal or not.

    The Hebrews also didn't think that the Americas existed, or Antarctica. Do you hold this to be true and accurate, as wall?


    Here are a few questions for flat earth theory, as they relate strictly to observable evidence (by a common person):

    1.) Why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular? (Knowing that stars do not)
    2.) What causes physical reality causes a solar eclipse, as it would be impossible given the models you have provided?
    3.) Are there other planets?

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    In the 1547 (I think) Matthews Bible it says flatt, two t's. I posted a picture of the text in that Bible where it says flat. It could be an interpreting error in one Bible and many of those verses of the 200 could be taken out of context. Flat Earthers don't contend that everything has to be "straight".
    It is an earlier bible version, however, even then, I could not find the phrase "flatt earthe" within 2 Samuel 11:11.

    I think that many of the verses listed in that particular image are taken out of context, as many are figurative, such as "straight paths." I simply address the obvious illogical fallacy that would present if one contended that "since all paths are straight, not curved, the earth must be flat." That ignores easily observable phenomenon, such as hillocks, valleys, etc.

    While flat earth theories do not contend that "all must be flat," their submitted evidence relies on that very strict, objective notion.

    I posited three questions to Tambora, regarding flat earth theory and its explanations for them. Anyone can feel free to answer them, if they like, so I will post them in this reply, as well. They simply demonstrate some very basic observations that flat earth theory would be hard pressed to answer.

    1.) Why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular? (Knowing that stars do not)
    2.) What causes physical reality causes a solar eclipse, as it would be impossible given the models you have provided?
    3.) Are there other planets?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    1.) Why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular? (Knowing that stars do not)
    2.) What causes physical reality causes a solar eclipse, as it would be impossible given the models you have provided?
    3.) Are there other planets?
    1. We know that God created heavenly bodies to be observed for signs and seasons. It doesn't say anything about the size, shape or distance of "stars" that I'm aware of. Personally, I don't see what stars not appearing perfectly circular has to do with anything.
    2. If I understand #2, the entire explanation for eclipses, lunar and solar are shown absolutely possible on an enclosed earth and firmament. When I get time to, I will examine that information more and try typing what they show instead of a video to watch. I may post the vid if I think it's worthy though.
    3. Yes there are other planets (from what we apparently see and are told) as we define them. I could be wrong but I think stars also fit the definition of a planet.

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    Romans 11:33-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    1. We know that God created heavenly bodies to be observed for signs and seasons. It doesn't say anything about the size, shape or distance of "stars" that I'm aware of. Personally, I don't see what stars not appearing perfectly circular has to do with anything.
    Stars were not the focus of the question, merely an added bit of information.

    The question is "why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular?"

    2. If I understand #2, the entire explanation for eclipses, lunar and solar are shown absolutely possible on an enclosed earth and firmament. When I get time to, I will examine that information more and try typing what they show instead of a video to watch. I may post the vid if I think it's worthy though.
    Any form of response, be it video or personal explanation will suffice. Provided that the explanation is based in a physically evident reality.

    If it is a video, I would prefer one with a scholastic, scholarly source. But, beggars can't be choosers.

    3. Yes there are other planets (from what we apparently see and are told) as we define them. I could be wrong but I think stars also fit the definition of a planet.
    I agree that there are planets that are observable. But the same evidence provided for such planets comes from sources that use equally weighted evidence for support of a spherical earth.


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Romans 11:33-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
    The dilemma I'm finding in the debate over an enclosed earth and cosmos is that people think it's not possible. If you think it's impossible then you won't hear what the Bible and therefore, I am saying. Nothing is impossible for God. His ways are past finding out.

    I'm crazy, I don't know math, I'M the one ignoring "facts" and "nasa data" and it's not possible. If you can get past all that, then consider that it is possible. Just like the Bible says. If it's not possible, why waste your time? This subject does not change my faith or doctrine. Whether it is or isn't a flying spinning ball or an enclosed earth and firmament makes no difference in how I live my life. Like many people, I find the subject fascinating with the Biblical support of an enclosed earth and firmament. Make up your own mind, decide for yourself.


    Luke 1:37 KJV - For with God nothing shall be impossible.


    Genesis 18:14 KJV - Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    Last edited by patrick jane; February 7th, 2018 at 07:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post

    The Hebrews also didn't think that the Americas existed, or Antarctica. Do you hold this to be true and accurate, as wall?
    I don't consider the Bible to be what Hebrews think or say about the earth, but what GOD thinks and says about the earth.

    When one sets the flat earth model and the glove earth model side by side, the one that best fits the descriptions in the Bible are aligned with the flat earth model.

    i can guess why men get their facts wrong, because they are ignorant compared to GOD.
    I trust GOD over ignorant mankind.
    But that's just me.
    You can trust in whomever you wish.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    TIMELAPSE OF THE SUN PROVES FLAT EARTH - HD perspective matrix


    From the video description: This is an upgraded version of the original with added timelapse footage. The old, low resolution footage has been replaced with high resolution HD footage. Watch how the sun comes at you when it's rising and goes away from you when it's setting. See how the sun's light at sunset shrinks and trails after it - not at all what we would expect to see if the sun is 93,000,000 miles away.

    I am posting this video in Dave's thread and my two threads because this is good evidence - debunk it if you can.
    https://youtu.be/GDaiw-G1VGE
    - Only 20 minutes to prove the flat earth, Click on link for full screen view - Sometimes if you click the video the screen gets cut in half. This won't happen on your phone.


    I would like to "debunk" this, but it would venture out of biblical bases, relying on physics, astronomy, and other extra-biblical evidence and posits.

    So, with your permission, I will proceed
    It will probably be later tonight or tomorrow when I respond, though, due to non-TOL engagements.

    Sent from my iPhone using TOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    I would like to "debunk" this, but it would venture out of biblical bases, relying on physics, astronomy, and other extra-biblical evidence and posits.

    So, with your permission, I will proceed
    It will probably be later tonight or tomorrow when I respond, though, due to non-TOL engagements.

    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    No problem, If you can, see my post in Dave's flat earth thread that I just made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I don't consider the Bible to be what Hebrews think or say about the earth, but what GOD thinks and says about the earth.

    When one sets the flat earth model and the glove earth model side by side, the one that best fits the descriptions in the Bible are aligned with the flat earth model.

    i can guess why men get their facts wrong, because they are ignorant compared to GOD.
    I trust GOD over ignorant mankind.
    But that's just me.
    You can trust in whomever you wish.
    You are avoiding the logical issues, relying on quips to defend your argument and to expose flaws in my character.

    Why not just defend your position? Thus far, there as be no definitive biblical evidence of "flat earth." You will notice that you didn't answer the three questions I posed, unlike Sir Patrick. Is it because you rely on others to handle the hard questions, because you can't?

    (See how quips that are aimed at character are fruitless to meaningful conversation?)




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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    You are avoiding the logical issues, relying on quips to defend your argument and to expose flaws in my character.

    Why not just defend your position? Thus far, there as be no definitive biblical evidence of "flat earth." You will notice that you didn't answer the three questions I posed, unlike Sir Patrick. Is it because you rely on others to handle the hard questions, because you can't?

    (See how quips that are aimed at character are fruitless to meaningful conversation?)




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    Listen up, bud.
    I am not doing anything to your character.
    Your character has nothing to do with it.

    If you want to talk about what Hebrews thought and said, be my guest.
    I don't care to go down that trail.

    I am just going by what scripture presents.
    I am not going by what science presents, nor what some Hebrews present.

    Tell me what you think scripture says about the earth.
    We can go from there.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Not scripture, but from Christians who attest that the earth is a sphere. Answers also has scripture articles.

    Reinventing the wheel here on TOL isn't as good, imho, as reading articles by men and women who have the best means to test theories.

    Being a pilot also proves a global earth (and there are other reasons I believe both scripturally and by observation, the earth is a globe), but I'm not really into talking someone out of their beliefs if it matters this much to them. I am interested in the truth and giving information that anyone can look up. I'm also interested in giving observations that prove or uphold a global earth (Here is another that convinced me Coriolis Effect).

    Here is a good overall basic of what it means to be on a ball (sphere). If what he is saying is true (and it is) you or anybody CAN test whether what he is saying is true and discover for yourself, on your own terms, whether the earth is a globe or a disk.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    The question is "why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular?"
    God made them. God makes perfect things. Because they WERE NOT created by the "big bang". You do belive Jesus Christ created all things, right?

    John 1:1-3 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    John 1:10-12 KJV - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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